2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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DaveinOlyWA said:
eatsleafsandshoots said:
Despite everyone saying these packs heat up super fast (and they do seem to, especially with DCQC), I've also noticed that they seem to cool faster as well ('17 S vs '13 SV). I'm spending most of the day at 5 temp bars and only right when I get home do I get to 6 temp bars, even after a full L2 charge in 95 degree heat (granted, the garage is covered but is exposed directly to the outdoors). Anyone else seen this?

Agreed. I am noticing the pack getting hotter but also cooling much faster. When it was cooler, I would see my pack take nearly 24 hours or more to cool to ambient on my 2013 and this getting it no higher than 7 TBs but my 2016, I had it up to 10 TBs and it was almost back to ambient less than 10 hours later

Sorry for diverting from your help with VAB5, but just wanted to throw out some more data on the battery heating/cooling.

yesterday, I drove to santa clarita (1200 feet elevation gain). QC'd for 31 minutes (13.5kwh added) and temp bars went from 6 to 10. LeafSpy showed 123 F (while ambient was ~80 F @ 8pm). Drove for 48 miles (~an hour), and battery temp was still at 122 F.

12 hrs later(with overnight L2 charging), battery temp was still at 98.6 (7 bars) - Ambient was 70.
 
Back with some more info on my 2017 SV that had a rapidly declining SOH. In the first 400 miles it went from 100% down to 92% along with an associated decline in Ah rating and estimated range. This was with only L1 charging (120V) using the supplied Nissan slow charger. I'm doing textbook normal driving, mixed freeway and city not letting it stay fully charged long and not driving it to empty. Keeping it between about 80% and 20%. Mild weather here in San Diego not far from the coast.

Last week I received my OPEN EVSE charger (nice charger by the way) and started doing 240 V charging, albeit at only 20A because I am using my dryer outlet until I get 50 amp service installed. So it's charging around 4kw rate. Charged couple times to 100%, couple of times to 80%. SOH has gone back up to 95%. Still kind of sad for a car with only 600 miles but the thing to note is the SOH improvement with 240 V charging. Full charge GOM range is now 96 miles. (I know, sad.....When new it was 117). Maybe these batteries do not like to be slow charged.
 
rmorgansd said:
Back with some more info on my 2017 SV that had a rapidly declining SOH. In the first 400 miles it went from 100% down to 92% along with an associated decline in Ah rating and estimated range. This was with only L1 charging (120V) using the supplied Nissan slow charger. I'm doing textbook normal driving, mixed freeway and city not letting it stay fully charged long and not driving it to empty. Keeping it between about 80% and 20%. Mild weather here in San Diego not far from the coast.

Last week I received my OPEN EVSE charger (nice charger by the way) and started doing 240 V charging, albeit at only 20A because I am using my dryer outlet until I get 50 amp service installed. So it's charging around 4kw rate. Charged couple times to 100%, couple of times to 80%. SOH has gone back up to 95%. Still kind of sad for a car with only 600 miles but the thing to note is the SOH improvement with 240 V charging. Full charge GOM range is now 96 miles. (I know, sad.....When new it was 117). Maybe these batteries do not like to be slow charged.
Thanks for the update. Yes, I think the Leaf batteries (all the way back to 2011) see greater SOH losses on L1 vs. L2. Others have reported it as well. Unfortunately, it is now starting to look like "doing the right thing" by treating the batteries gently is actually not the right thing. To get the most value out of this vehicle, one needs to drive as much as possible (like Taxi service). Still 150,000 mi (~2000 cycles) is looking like close to maximum use.
 
Reddy said:
rmorgansd said:
... the thing to note is the SOH improvement with 240 V charging. Full charge GOM range is now 96 miles. (I know, sad.....When new it was 117). Maybe these batteries do not like to be slow charged.
... I think the Leaf batteries (all the way back to 2011) see greater SOH losses on L1 vs. L2.

...it is now starting to look like "doing the right thing" by treating the batteries gently is actually not the right thing...
I wonder if the designers of the LBC (assuming they care) are more astounded or amused by this continuing display of gullibility on MNL...
 
I wonder if the designers of the LBC (assuming they care) are more astounded or amused by this continuing display of gullibility on MNL...

Um, gullibility? Did you know that word isn't in the dictionary?

Firstly I wouldn't use the term gullible, which means 'easily deceived or tricked'. They didn't design a system to trick users. They designed a controller to report battery status which I agree is hard to do. I used to design battery fuel gauges back when Li-Ion batteries were just beginning to be used in cell phones. I was a senior baseband electronics engineer for Nokia Mobile Phones responsible for the charge controller circuit used in 3 million Sprint phones. CCONT was the name of the integrated circuit I designed and it had to distinguish between Ni-Cad, Ni-Mh and Li-Ion variant batteries, then apply the correct settings for charge and gauge. And I agree lithium is not easy to fuel gauge because the discharge curve is pretty flat.

What we have here are end users who are interested in the inner workings of their relatively high technology cars. It's American tradition to take apart our cars, (figuratively and literally) learn how they work and make them work better. Curiosity leading to reverse engineering by experience is more like what we are doing here.

Now, let's get back to the topic......do you have anything constructive to add to our building knowledge base?
 
Reddy said:
rmorgansd said:
Back with some more info on my 2017 SV that had a rapidly declining SOH. In the first 400 miles it went from 100% down to 92% along with an associated decline in Ah rating and estimated range. This was with only L1 charging (120V) using the supplied Nissan slow charger. I'm doing textbook normal driving, mixed freeway and city not letting it stay fully charged long and not driving it to empty. Keeping it between about 80% and 20%. Mild weather here in San Diego not far from the coast.

Last week I received my OPEN EVSE charger (nice charger by the way) and started doing 240 V charging, albeit at only 20A because I am using my dryer outlet until I get 50 amp service installed. So it's charging around 4kw rate. Charged couple times to 100%, couple of times to 80%. SOH has gone back up to 95%. Still kind of sad for a car with only 600 miles but the thing to note is the SOH improvement with 240 V charging. Full charge GOM range is now 96 miles. (I know, sad.....When new it was 117). Maybe these batteries do not like to be slow charged.
Thanks for the update. Yes, I think the Leaf batteries (all the way back to 2011) see greater SOH losses on L1 vs. L2. Others have reported it as well. Unfortunately, it is now starting to look like "doing the right thing" by treating the batteries gently is actually not the right thing. To get the most value out of this vehicle, one needs to drive as much as possible (like Taxi service). Still 150,000 mi (~2000 cycles) is looking like close to maximum use.

This "seems" to work for a lot. I have 2016 S, purchased 11/11/16 build 10/16 and have almost 16,000 miles in 7½ months with 131 QCs, 165 L2 charging sessions.

Have baked it over 120º more than 2 dozen times, had 14 3 QC charge days, dozens more 2 charge days, etc. my batt stats are exactly the same as the day I picked up the car. Haven't even lost .01% on anything.
 
soldcake said:
i cannot help wondering why Nissan does not have "battery cooler" package for hot weather regions. They have "battery heater" package for cold weather regions. :D

Physics. You can add power to create heat with no practical cost in space or weight. You can't create cold.

Let me repeat, You can't create cold. Full stop.

All you can do is move heat around. And moving heat around takes space and weight of new components that are cumbersome.

Oh yeah, and Nissan made a bad design choice at the beginning of the Leaf program and now they have doubled down on it, don't want to pay the price to do proper cooling.
 
rmorgansd said:
Back with some more info on my 2017 SV that had a rapidly declining SOH. In the first 400 miles it went from 100% down to 92% along with an associated decline in Ah rating and estimated range. This was with only L1 charging (120V) using the supplied Nissan slow charger. I'm doing textbook normal driving, mixed freeway and city not letting it stay fully charged long and not driving it to empty. Keeping it between about 80% and 20%. Mild weather here in San Diego not far from the coast.

Last week I received my OPEN EVSE charger (nice charger by the way) and started doing 240 V charging, albeit at only 20A because I am using my dryer outlet until I get 50 amp service installed. So it's charging around 4kw rate. Charged couple times to 100%, couple of times to 80%. SOH has gone back up to 95%. Still kind of sad for a car with only 600 miles but the thing to note is the SOH improvement with 240 V charging. Full charge GOM range is now 96 miles. (I know, sad.....When new it was 117). Maybe these batteries do not like to be slow charged.

What I’ve found out with all this back & forth on battery SOH loss and worrying about it on my ‘16 SL is that my car likes to be driven. When I only commute my 3 - 4 miles to the train station during my usual work week, my SOH suffers, sometimes all the way down to 92%. Yesterday I did a ton of driving, all the way to Bellevue, then all over Seattle, then back to Bellevue for a QC and then home to Tacoma again. Over 130 miles round trip with a QC at the Bellevue Nissan dealer in the afternoon. Result? SOH 97% when we got home w/ 49% SOC. Go figure.
 
Scaramanga said:
rmorgansd said:
Back with some more info on my 2017 SV that had a rapidly declining SOH. In the first 400 miles it went from 100% down to 92% along with an associated decline in Ah rating and estimated range. This was with only L1 charging (120V) using the supplied Nissan slow charger. I'm doing textbook normal driving, mixed freeway and city not letting it stay fully charged long and not driving it to empty. Keeping it between about 80% and 20%. Mild weather here in San Diego not far from the coast.

Last week I received my OPEN EVSE charger (nice charger by the way) and started doing 240 V charging, albeit at only 20A because I am using my dryer outlet until I get 50 amp service installed. So it's charging around 4kw rate. Charged couple times to 100%, couple of times to 80%. SOH has gone back up to 95%. Still kind of sad for a car with only 600 miles but the thing to note is the SOH improvement with 240 V charging. Full charge GOM range is now 96 miles. (I know, sad.....When new it was 117). Maybe these batteries do not like to be slow charged.

What I’ve found out with all this back & forth on battery SOH loss and worrying about it on my ‘16 SL is that my car likes to be driven. When I only commute my 3 - 4 miles to the train station during my usual work week, my SOH suffers, sometimes all the way down to 92%. Yesterday I did a ton of driving, all the way to Bellevue, then all over Seattle, then back to Bellevue for a QC and then home to Tacoma again. Over 130 miles round trip with a QC at the Bellevue Nissan dealer in the afternoon. Result? SOH 97% when we got home w/ 49% SOC. Go figure.

to add; 7½ months 15,500 miles. 137 QCs, baked to 120+º nearly 3 dozen times. Batt stats same (exact same to be exact) as day one.
 
i tends to think QC and deep cycle "calibrates" the BMS only.

My 2016SV battery stats shows about 92%SOH 73AHr most of the time, a little bit higher after QC. Last week, with 90ish temperature, i had chance to QC from 40% to 80% once every day, 4days in a row. Batt stat jumps to 95%SOH on first day, and flat from there. So my impression that QC kind of only change BMS "impression" of the battery, not really improves the battery.

And, batteries are built different. I envy you guys having 80+Ahr cells.
 
2016 Nissan Leaf 30kWh lost 2 bars after 18 months and 31,000 miles.

Drive to/from work everyday round trip of 84 miles in Phoenix, AZ.
 
cmeyeres said:
2016 Nissan Leaf 30kWh lost 2 bars after 18 months and 31,000 miles.

Drive to/from work everyday round trip of 84 miles in Phoenix, AZ.
My guess is your battery never gets a chance to cool down is that correct?
From what I've found the optimum temperature for me is between 80 and 90 degrees (2016 sl) but the conditions in these neck of the woods allows the battery to cool down to low 70's or even high 60's between runs and keeps it at 98 to 99% SOH.
 
Being in such a hot climate AND pushing the car to do an 85 mile round trip is pushing the car beyond its capability. Nissan should stop beating their heads against a brick wall and stop selling the Leaf to people in hot climates, who will also abuse the car and then cry for free repairs... Your problem is not a defect of the car.....
 
powersurge said:
Being in such a hot climate AND pushing the car to do an 85 mile round trip is pushing the car beyond its capability. Nissan should stop beating their heads against a brick wall and stop selling the Leaf to people in hot climates, who will also abuse the car and then cry for free repairs... Your problem is not a defect of the car.....
I don't think an 85 mile round trip in a car with a 107-mile range qualifies as abuse. And having a battery replaced if it drops below the warrantied capacity during the warranty period isn't crying for free repairs. But you could be right about the current Leaf not being suitable for long commutes in very hot climates.


cmeyeres said:
2016 Nissan Leaf 30kWh lost 2 bars after 18 months and 31,000 miles.

Drive to/from work everyday round trip of 84 miles in Phoenix, AZ.
Wow! You must have scored one of the first 2016s in Phoenix. Sorry to read about your loss. What's your current range on a single charge? I think ElectricEddy is right about your battery never cooling down. Are you charging at work and did you always charge at work? Do you charge as soon as you get home or do you delay your evening charge?
 
ElectricEddy said:
cmeyeres said:
2016 Nissan Leaf 30kWh lost 2 bars after 18 months and 31,000 miles.

Drive to/from work everyday round trip of 84 miles in Phoenix, AZ.
My guess is your battery never gets a chance to cool down is that correct?
From what I've found the optimum temperature for me is between 80 and 90 degrees (2016 sl) but the conditions in these neck of the woods allows the battery to cool down to low 70's or even high 60's between runs and keeps it at 98 to 99% SOH.

His pack probably won't see double figure temps till October. Phoenix is simply a different World.

I am south in a much warmer climate and I have baked my batteries into the 120's several dozen times but like you, I cool down every night.
(mostly with the exception of last Saturday night when garage got no lower than 82º) Now I might be on borrowed time due to the abusive actions and we shall see. One Summer might not be enough though but my previous 2 LEAFs provided no real indication in the first year either but this first year will be MUCH more miles than previous years .
 
dhanson865 said:
soldcake said:
i cannot help wondering why Nissan does not have "battery cooler" package for hot weather regions. They have "battery heater" package for cold weather regions. :D

Physics. You can add power to create heat with no practical cost in space or weight. You can't create cold.

Let me repeat, You can't create cold. Full stop.

All you can do is move heat around. And moving heat around takes space and weight of new components that are cumbersome.

And yet, somehow my Chevy Volt figures this out.
 
2016 SV 7293 miles lost first bar, seems early to me based on other posts. 11/15 manufacture, 10/16 lease start for me, so do not know what the dealership did to the vehicle here in Orlando, FL between those two dates. Fortunately a leased car, so there is an end in sight.
 
oleviking said:
2016 SV 7293 miles lost first bar, seems early to me based on other posts. 11/15 manufacture, 10/16 lease start for me, so do not know what the dealership did to the vehicle here in Orlando, FL between those two dates. Fortunately a leased car, so there is an end in sight.

Mine is almost ready to lose first bar too. I am at about 8k ODO, 82% SOH and 79 or so Hx. What were your numbers when the first one dropped?
 
Just a little earlier than those I suspect. Only really noticed it when I charged to 100% and saw the bar gone. I had noticed the GOM reading was not as high as it had been in the last week or so, but didn't really think too much about it, until I saw the bar had gone, then I knew why the GOM readings had been off.
 
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