2017 Prius Prime PHEV

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TomT said:
Car and Driver's plus/minus summaries are pretty good:

Prius Prime:
+ Lulls you into the slow lane
+ Soft Ride
+ Lots of Back Seat Space
- Oddball Design
- Lacks' the Volt's Range
- A tortoise on the road
- Minivan handling
= Sometimes the Hare wins

Volt:
+ A better EV
+ A better hybrid
+ Better handling
+ Better looks
- Small rear seat
- Costs more
= The best plug-in hybrid yet

Bottom Line:
Prius: Ugly, slow in hybrid mode, ugly, really slow in BEV mode, roomy
Volt: Looks a bit like an Elantra, drives great, tight rear seating, quick, and worth the extra money
Winner (by a healthy margin): Volt

Lol! +1
If you have a short commute but like occasional long road trips and can stand the looks.. go for Prime!

I really like my Volt2 and think the adaptive cruise control is the greatest thing since cup holders and a heated steering wheel.

FWIW the included Volt2 120v EVSE runs fine on 240v. I actually dumped my 2nd TOU meter with SoCal Edison (originally installed for the EV1 in 1997) and am now sharing the electric clothes dryer socket charging off peak (TOU D-A) @240v 12A. With my PV and 10kWh home battery cycling I've accrued a $200 credit with Edison over the last 6 months so charging the Volt is more or less free. Just can't dry laundry at the same time.
 
GregH said:
TomT said:
If you have a short commute but like occasional long road trips
Is 90 miles a long trip ? I would use about 1.2 gallons of fuel and one 5.6 kWh charge for that trip to work and back in a Prime according to the EPA.

What would you use in your Volt ?
 
Yes the Prius is more efficient.. but I'm consistently getting 60+ miles of EV range out of the Volt. Most of my trips are <60mi or >300mi.

I don't know how peppy the latest Prii are, but I had a 2005 which was a perfectly capable car, the Volt is just a lot more fun.
 
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
Can someone tell me exactly what kind of heater or heaters the Prime uses aside from the engine?
Gas heat pump for cabin heating. COP of ~ 2 at 14F and quickly rises to over 4.
The 'gas' part of the name is a partial re-cirulation of refrigerant vapor through a bypass shunt before the expansion valve. Not exactly thermodynamically intuitive but it is a well known approach that is not often built due to engineering difficulties and cost.

Really, really smart on Toyota's part since the drop in range in a cold winter is a substantial stumbling block in EV use. Toyota has engineering optimization down to a fine art, and they recognize that improving a 1000 different areas, albeit each one not by much, adds up to a superior product. This is why no other company has ever duplicated the Prius fuel economy. An Atkinson ICE helps, but is only one improvement amongst hundreds that went into the Prius -- most of them not specifically hybrid related.

The 25 miles of range from 5.6 kWh is a rare efficiency seen in the *EV market and represents the same attention to detail. It also lets them re-use a lot of the Gen4 Prius design because the battery is small(er) than competitors with ~ equal EV performance, and thus keep costs down. They really have the integrated, system-wide philosophy at the heart of the cars they build.
When you say "gas" heat pump, are you saying the gas engine must run to get heat, or can you still get heat without running the engine running, down to ~14F? What happens below 14F, does it have an electric heater or does the ICE just run then?
Our current Prius is NOT this way, the only way to get heat is via the ICE so if you want heat at any temp, the ICE must run.
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
Can someone tell me exactly what kind of heater or heaters the Prime uses aside from the engine?
Gas heat pump for cabin heating. COP of ~ 2 at 14F and quickly rises to over 4.
The 'gas' part of the name is a partial re-cirulation of refrigerant vapor through a bypass shunt before the expansion valve. Not exactly thermodynamically intuitive but it is a well known approach that is not often built due to engineering difficulties and cost.

Really, really smart on Toyota's part since the drop in range in a cold winter is a substantial stumbling block in EV use. Toyota has engineering optimization down to a fine art, and they recognize that improving a 1000 different areas, albeit each one not by much, adds up to a superior product. This is why no other company has ever duplicated the Prius fuel economy. An Atkinson ICE helps, but is only one improvement amongst hundreds that went into the Prius -- most of them not specifically hybrid related.

The 25 miles of range from 5.6 kWh is a rare efficiency seen in the *EV market and represents the same attention to detail. It also lets them re-use a lot of the Gen4 Prius design because the battery is small(er) than competitors with ~ equal EV performance, and thus keep costs down. They really have the integrated, system-wide philosophy at the heart of the cars they build.
When you say "gas" heat pump, are you saying the gas engine must run to get heat, or can you still get heat without running the engine running, down to ~14F? What happens below 14F, does it have an electric heater or does the ICE just run then?
Our current Prius is NOT this way, the only way to get heat is via the ICE so if you want heat at any temp, the ICE must run.
The heat pump is electric, just like your refrigerator.

At low enough temperatures a heat pump has the same efficiency as a resistance heater, a COP of 1.0

This new-fangled heat pump is new to the Prime in the Prius line. I vaguely remember that the older Prius also have a small electric resistance heater for defrost mode but in general you are right -- cabin heating in your car is via ICE waste heat.
 
GregH said:
Yes the Prius is more efficient.. but I'm consistently getting 60+ miles of EV range out of the Volt. Most of my trips are <60mi or >300mi.
And I routinely beat EPA by 30% in my car. So what ?

Compare EPA to EPA. What is your answer ? It's a simple arithmetic problem to replace uninformed fan-boyism.
 
??
Perhaps there is more to the buying decision than over all efficiency? I wanted a car that had at least as much range as my prior 10bar Leaf. If you like the new Prius for whatever reason, buy it! For me AER was more important than MPG.
 
GregH said:
Your wrote this
If you have a short commute but like occasional long road trips ... buy a Prime
I'm asking you to back up your trollish fan-boyism with fact by figuring out energy consumptions of your volt for a 90 mile trip with one charge and to compare your results with a Prime.

I promise: no more than common core 3rd grade arithmetic is involved.
 
I think you are misinterpreting me.. I already acknowledged the Prius is a more efficient car. I know several people who routinely drive less than 20mi/day for whom the Prius might make an excellent choice. Perhaps there are also many who drive more and wouldn't mind the ICE kicking in every day (I would). For me personally AER is a key point. That's why I chose the Leaf over the Volt1 in 2011 (that and I still hadn't gotten over being burned by GM when they took away my EV1s.. Hardly a fanboy). When Volt2 came out it seemed to me they had fixed all the things I didn't like about Volt1 (more range, more power, better dashboard, better looaks, more features). Don't get me wrong though, the Prius is a great car. I helped engineer the very first lithium PHEV Prius in 2005 and my personal car was one of the test mules. I'm sure Toyota has improved on it in the last dozen years but for me the Volt2 better fit my needs/wants.
 
GregH said:
I think you are misinterpreting me.. I already acknowledged the Prius is a more efficient car. I know several people who routinely drive less than 20mi/day for whom the Prius might make an excellent choice. Perhaps there are also many who drive more and wouldn't mind the ICE kicking in every day (I would). For me personally AER is a key point.

Do you have a reservation for a Tesla Model 3 ?
 
Good question.
I thought long and hard about a Bolt or T3 (could have held onto the Leaf lease till the Bolt arrived, but not T3).

In the end I decided lugging around an ICE that hardly gets used was more convenient than lugging around an extra 40kWh of batteries that hardly gets used although it's close.

One drive I do often is between OC and Lake Tahoe along the back road (395). While quick chargers will get there eventually (Tesla already has it), a 5min stop at the gas station is still faster. Interesting even with a full charge and a full tank I can't make the trip in one shot! Probably could have in a PP, but a 5min break on a 9hr drive really doesn't bother me.

I'm confident my next car (in 6-8yrs) will be a 60+kWh car hopefully with some autonomous capabilities and no APU.

PS. Should also note the reliability of the EV1 (even though it was a great car) left something to be desired. This is why I did something I rarely do: shelled out for the extended warranty. I bet the PP will be a more reliable car.
 
GregH said:
Good question.
I thought long and hard about a Bolt or T3 (could have held onto the Leaf lease till the Bolt arrived, but not T3).

In the end I decided lugging around an ICE that hardly gets used was more convenient than lugging around an extra 40kWh of batteries that hardly gets used although it's close.

One drive I do often is between OC and Lake Tahoe along the back road (395). While quick chargers will get there eventually (Tesla already has it), a 5min stop at the gas station is still faster. Interesting even with a full charge and a full tank I can't make the trip in one shot! Probably could have in a PP, but a 5min break on a 9hr drive really doesn't bother me.

I'm confident my next car (in 6-8yrs) will be a 60+kWh car hopefully with some autonomous capabilities and no APU.

PS. Should also note the reliability of the EV1 (even though it was a great car) left something to be desired. This is why I did something I rarely do: shelled out for the extended warranty. I bet the PP will be a more reliable car.

Fair enough, but as a side observation ...
You bought a Volt because AER is #1
-- but you prefer using an ICE (albeit infrequently) over lugging around batteries
-- and you prefer ICE trips and mediocre fuel economy to a small delay charging up a Tesla

We all have conflicting priorities, but you are as good an example as any why posts that say "VOLT of course! AER is higher!" are not so straight-forward as they are stated. I hope you are happy with your car choice.
 
SageBrush said:
Fair enough, but as a side observation ...
You bought a Volt because AER is #1
-- but you prefer using an ICE (albeit infrequently) over lugging around batteries
-- and you prefer ICE trips and mediocre fuel economy to a small delay charging up a Tesla

We all have conflicting priorities, but you are as good an example as any why posts that say "VOLT of course! AER is higher!" are not so straight-forward as they are stated. I hope you are happy with your car choice.

Sorry for dragging this out.. I don't really care if you understand my buying choices but for anyone else sadistic enough to still be reading this discussion, I wanted to make it clear. Also I find your tone a bit offensive. You personally might love Toyota and hate GM.. that's fine. It wasn't a big factor for me.

Tesla 3 was never an option. It wouldn't be available to me for a couple years and my purchase window was basically late 2016 or early 2017. Also despite Musk's assurances it doesn't look to me like I could easily get my bike in and out of a T3. A deal breaker for me.

Prius Prime was never an option either. I've spent many miles in Prii and they are perfectly capable vehicles but not what I would consider fun or attractive.

At the time I turned in my Leaf it was good for just under 60 miles. When I needed a car for long distances, my rental cars never achieved 40mpg. So far the Volt2 has exceeded the electric range of my old Leaf and gotten higher mpg than the rental cars.

But why did I really go with Volt? I saw my options as Volt, Bolt or 30kWh Leaf. Ultimately I decided I still wanted the gas APU over a huge battery for long trips and while I really liked my Leaf, I felt it was time to move on.

From Volt1 to Volt2 I felt GM had done an impressive job at increasing the power, increasing the AER, increasing the mpg, improving the looks and making a more functional dashboard.

The real icing on the cake for me though, was the availability of adaptive cruise control. I've always wanted this in a car and now that I've tasted it, I'm never going back! The Volt also has a bunch of cool gadgetry like lane keeping, blind zone detection, sonar etc that appeals to the geek in me. It's nearly the same hardware as found in a early 2016 Tesla although of course the SW for lane keeping is much more conservative than "autopilot"... unfortunately.
Another thing I wasn't willing to give up.. the heated steering wheel. Not quite as toasty as the Leaf (although the seats are more toasty) but perfectly acceptible.
 
GregH said:
Sorry for dragging this out.. I don't really care if you understand my buying choices but for anyone else sadistic enough to still be reading this discussion, I wanted to make it clear. Also I find your tone a bit offensive.
That's OK -- I find muddled thinking (or is it just a bit of hypocrisy ?) more than a little offensive.

If you "don't care" if you are are "understood," then why post ? Surely the "understanding" of one anonymous reader is equal to another ? I think you are looking for agreement. I recommend volt.com

The rest of your post is at least honest
A host of priorities, some of them conflicting, lead you in the end to choose a Volt. Fair enough, but "I wanted a heating steering wheel" and "I don't find the Prius fun or attractive" have NOTHING to do with your original post that the Volt was chosen based on AER. Like many a Volt owner I have read, ONE of your priorities is to drive high torque EV on most days and you are willing to to turn a blind eye towards EV efficiency, overall fuel utilization, tailpipe emissions, plant emissions and carbon pollution.
 
Car and Driver nailed it succinctly:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2017-chevrolet-volt-premier-vs-2017-toyota-prius-prime-advanced-comparison-test
 
TomT said:
Car and Driver nailed it succinctly:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2017-chevrolet-volt-premier-vs-2017-toyota-prius-prime-advanced-comparison-test
:: face palm ::

Do people actually pay to read that garbage ?
 
SageBrush said:
TomT said:
Car and Driver nailed it succinctly:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2017-chevrolet-volt-premier-vs-2017-toyota-prius-prime-advanced-comparison-test
:: face palm ::

Do people actually pay to read that garbage ?
How is it garbage? It accurately sums up the differences between the markets for the two cars. To wit:

While the Prius Prime might not please those of us who love driving, Toyota’s repu­tation for reliability and the Prius Prime’s soothing driving experience will be compelling enough to win over fuel-obsessed buyers. . . . .
and

There are some major differentiators between the Volt and the Prius Prime. First and foremost is the way the Volt drives. Judging by the Chevy’s steering, brakes, and ride, it’s clear that someone involved in the Volt’s creation shares our values. . . .
which is exactly what I was saying back a page or two. These are two very different cars, aimed at consumers with very different priorities. Has anyone ever bought a Prius because it was enjoyable/exciting to drive, or a car from GM (at least in the past 40 years) because they expected exceptional reliability from it?
 
No, it is free online though I do subscribe... But they pretty summed my thoughts on the Prime after driving one... It is not a car that I would ever want to own for many of the reasons stated in the article... And it is fugly!

SageBrush said:
Do people actually pay to read that garbage ?
 
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