GRA
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Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:52 pm

silverone wrote:<snip>
Please let this Volt Driving Critical Thought Imbecile ask one more question, which was why I originally posted here. Do you think a 3 year old 40,000 mile LEAF at or approaching 11 bars would be good for a 40 mile commute for the next 3 years and 60,000 additional miles at potentially zero degree winter temperatures? One way with charging on both ends. I know a 3-5 yr old Volt can, but it would be interesting to try something different and save a 4,000 price premium on a used model Volt vs LEAF.

Almost certainly not (I was tempted to just put 'No', but depending on speeds, terrain and how you drive generally you just might make it work). If you expect to use heat, then no.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

silverone
Posts: 88
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Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2017
Location: Eastern OH

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:15 pm

GRA wrote:Almost certainly not (I was tempted to just put 'No', but depending on speeds, terrain and how you drive generally you just might make it work). If you expect to use heat, then no.


Thank you. That was my gut feel, but I drove my first winter year in the Volt without much heat to stretch EV miles, so I know that side too.
2013 SL with Premium package - build date 5/13. 12 bar car with 43,000 miles and counting... Don't expect the first bar to last to 50,000 miles!

2014 Volt - 46,000+ miles

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drees
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Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:21 am

edatoakrun wrote:This has already been discussed, repeatedly, in the Volt thread.

I'm not sure what you think I'm discussing, my point was simply:

1. The Volt's batteries DO lose capacity over time (silverone was looking for some data on actual measured capacity loss on the Volt).
2. They don't seem to lose much capacity over time, compared to BEVs and especially compared to the '11-14 LEAF.

Anyway, back on topic.

It's interesting to me that there appears to be a couple late '13 LEAFs and '14 LEAFs that are losing bars at a similar rate as one might expect with '11-12 LEAFs.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12070
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:40 pm

cwerdna wrote:
GRA wrote:Just to be clear, the Volt's battery has suffered degradation but because GM decided to only use 65% of the total capacity when new, that degradation is hidden from the owner. In addition, they employed a very effective active TMS which slows down the rate of heat-related degradation, which combined with the relatively small SoC window allowed when new and the ability to open up that window as the battery ages, allows the Volt to appear to have no degradation from the user's perspective over a prolonged period of time.

Re: the bolded part, I've heard the Volt opening up more capacity as the battery degrades passed around both as speculation and fact by several different folks. I've also heard Volt folks claiming that the Volt does NOT do that.

I'm not clear who's right. Logically, it'd make sense for GM to do that. Whether or not they do it is a question...

If anyone has a definitive answer, preferably different independent sources providing evidence of one or the other, I'd like to know.


what sense would it make to not use that 35%? we all know batteries will degrade no matter how robust TMS is so its simply not possible to not have noticeable degradation in the car after a few years.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
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jdcbomb
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Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:42 am

Just lost my first bar yesterday on my MY13 Leaf. More details:

Model: 2013 Nissan Leaf SL
Manufactured: 2013 February
First Owner Leased: 2013.03.15
Original Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
Off-Lease Purchase Miles: 13,550
Off-Lease Pruchase Date: 2015.05.15
1st Bar Loss Miles: 25,843
1st Bar Loss Date: 2016.10.17
Current Location: Raleigh, North Carolina

Charging Details: I believe the vehicle was charged mostly on 120V Level 1 charging for the first couple years. When I purchased it off-lease, I charged it mostly at work on 240V Level 2 charging 3 to 4 times a week. Most of the charging sessions I charged it to 100%. Quick charges at 480V Level 3 occurred maybe once a month.

I do not have exact GIDs / SOH. Does this loss seem fairly normal? It seems it lasted through 3 entire summers of 90 F+ heat. GOM still shows 82+ miles when charged to 100%. Got a pretty good deal when I bought it, and I'm pretty satisfied with it. I plan to keep this vehicle for several more years and wait to see if a new battery pack can be offered for $2K or less!

DaveInAvl
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:11 am
Delivery Date: 18 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 331649
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:22 am

First bar lost on '14 SL.

Mfd. 1/14
In service 3/14
19,300 miles
AHr 55.49
SOH 84
Hx 82.24
445 L1/L2
170 QC
Asheville, NC

elec7ric
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:56 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Sep 2013
Leaf Number: 409414
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:18 am

I got my new 2013 SL (manufactured 5/2013 ) on 9/30/2013. Lost my first bar 5/2015, second bar 9/2015, third bar 5/2016 and forth bar 8/23/2016 (31,400 miles). First 21 months mostly charged L1/L2 to 80% (home and work). My drive was 55 miles round trip with about 75% highway. As capacity started to go away, I had to charge more often to 100%, however, I tried my best to keep it fully charged as little as possible (extreme Phoenix temperatures).

I wanted to delay replacement even if I was getting at work in the morning with about 12 miles left (from full charge). Just before 3 years, on 9/26 (not charged for third battery check), I was told that the delay in getting a new battery can be 3 months. With that in mind, I asked for the battery to be ordered.

In a month, the capacity loss increased a very few miles (somehow compensated by no AC need in the morning). That was enough to make me accept the replacement, when I was told Friday, 10/28, that my new battery arrived (less than 5 weeks). I dropped my car that afternoon. I got a 9/14 S Leaf as a loaner - similar driving to mine. Saturday afternoon I had back my leaf, with the new battery (AutoNation Nissan Tempe).

I am waiting for more data, but last night I was able to go on highway (15 miles one way, 202 San Tan/I10) both ways, with 61% SOC left (from 100%; in the weekends, driving is 75 - 80 miles/h to keep with the flow). Before, I would have been like 25% at half point - no way to go back on highway.
SL++ 5/2013 picked on 9/2013

cwerdna
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Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:47 am

elec7ric wrote:I got my new 2013 SL (manufactured 5/2013 ) on 9/30/2013. Lost my first bar 5/2015, second bar 9/2015, third bar 5/2016 and forth bar 8/23/2016 (31,400 miles). First 21 months mostly charged L1/L2 to 80% (home and work). My drive was 55 miles round trip with about 75% highway. As capacity started to go away, I had to charge more often to 100%, however, I tried my best to keep it fully charged as little as possible (extreme Phoenix temperatures).

Thank you for providing your data point and to you or whoever added it to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... #four_bars.

Wow. At least this confirms that even 4/2013+ built '13 Leafs can definitely lose 4 capacity bars within the capacity warranty. Those Phoenix temps are most definitely brutal.

My used 5/2013 '13 SV (original in-service date towards end of 6/2013) that I bought in July 2015 still has all 12 capacity bars now. I'm inching closer to losing 1 though. My current Leaf Spy stats are:
AHr: 57.49
SOH: 87%
Hx: 87.20% (got better w/some recent full/fuller charges and deeper discharge)
odo: 38,928 miles

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

achewt
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:45 am
Delivery Date: 09 May 2014
Location: Nelson, BC

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:42 pm

achewt wrote:Hi all - I haven't lost any bars on my 2014 yet, but thought I would pop in and relay my experiences so far:

Manufacture Date:
Feb 2014 (car was sitting on lot in Vancouver, BC)
Purchased Date: May 2014
Commute: 72 km one way
City: Nelson, BC; though the car spends 9-10 hours every day in Trail, BC, which is hotter and an open asphalt parking lot.
Climate: humid continental; summers are hot (for BC), averaging mid 20's (70 - 75) in May, June and September; 30's (85 - 100) in July and August. At night it is in a cool carport that is usually cooler than ambient temps as it is built into a hillside, so overnight temps of 10 (50) throughout summer. Fall/Spring are 5 - 15C. Winter is usually lows of -10 to 0; highs of -5 to 5. The car has been through two summers now, both hotter than average (especially this year).
Terrain: Mountainous! I gain/lose 500/650 m to and from work each day. Sometimes I drive to the nearby town of Rossland, so add another 600 m, charge while biking, then 600 m down and finish my commute.
Charging habits: I have an L2 at home, and charge to 100% every night during the non-summer seasons; typically arriving at work with 30 - 40% charge, then recharge to ~80% on L1 most days. Two months ago the first L2 was installed in Trail, so sometimes I use that charger and charge to 100% twice in a day. In the summer, I have messed with the timers to try and limit my charge to the 85-95% range. I rarely leave it sitting with 100% charge for more than a few hours. I've only QC'd 10 times while on long road trips, since there aren't any in my area.

I did not get an OBDII adapter/LeafSpy at first because I didn't want to bother with getting a different smart phone and thought I could track my apparent battery capacity by logging the dash data in a comprehensive fashion (log each trip, resetting the dash meters each time; recording km, km/kWh, avg speed, SOC% at start and end; I then calculated energy used, and divided that by SOC% used to infer the starting battery capacity in kWh).

After reviewing my daily commute data for the better part of a year, I found that my inferred battery capacity varied wildly from 16 kWh up to 24 kWh (sometimes higher, obviously not possible!) More troubling, I discovered that the Leaf screws up the efficiency calculation when incorporating regen energy. This became very obvious over some of the long descents that I can do in the Kootenays (> 1,000 m).

So, for the first year, I had no indication of what my actual capacity was at, though based on my real world observations, I inferred that it had not been much, since the GOM had only reduced starting range each morning by a few km from the year before (in similar conditions), and the amount of SOC% used for a given drive had stayed fairly constant. During a trip to the coast of BC, I was able to stop at an experimental DCQC station at BCIT, and the guy who runs the station came by and was able to read the capacity of my car as 20.7 kWh in June 2015.

This fall I discovered that LeafSpy was now available for the iPhone, so I bought the app and an adapter. I changed the settings to reflect a 2014 Leaf, but left the max GIDs at 281, and 77.5Wh/GID. I have since gathered the following readings:


Nov 7; 60,011 km; 62.94 Ahr, 96% SOH, 96.8% Hx, 273 GID (97% dash SOC), 21.2 kWh, batt temp 7.1
Dec 15; 61,963 km; 63.77 Ahr, 97% SOH, 97.9% Hx, 277 GID, 21.5 kWh (100% full balance charge), batt temp 8.4
Dec 29, 2015; 63,144 km; 63.79 Ahr, 97% SOH, 97.9% Hx, 267 GID, 20.7 kWh (97% dash SOC), batt temp 8.7
Dec 30, 2015; 63,265 km; 64.26 Ahr, 98% SOH, 98.5% Hx, 279 GID, 21.6 kWh (100%, 1 hr balancing), temp 7.4

Ambient temps over the last few weeks have been around -5 to 0C.

This morning I logged my trip to work with some screenshots of LeafSpy and plugged it into a spreadsheet, and it confirmed what I had noticed casually while viewing LeafSpy; often my energy remaining and energy consumed values do not total the amount of energy shown as available at the start of a trip. I left the house with 21.6 kWh available, and arrived to work with 8.4 kWh available and 11.5 kWh consumed for a total of 19.9 kWh. I extrapolated that trend, and noted that if I had driven to about 1 kWh remaining in the battery (as shown on LeafSpy), I would actually have been at 1 kWh remaining, 17.9 kWh consumed, for a total of 18.9 kWh.

That is a rather disturbing loss, and I'm not sure how to account for it. Can anyone provide some insight there? I'm hoping it is somehow related to the loss in capacity due to the temperature of the battery. Note that the efficiency shown in LeafSpy of 6.3 km/kWh matched that of the dash (though perhaps LS pulls that from the car?)

(Actually on that note, I would love it if someone could show me that calculation, and whether it shows up on LeafSpy, it would make my trip planner spreadsheet http://kootenayevfamily.ca/ev-basics/tr ... readsheet/ much more accurate if I could really figure out how many kWh are available for a certain battery temperature!)

I also have an OT question - does the value of a GID degrade along with the battery? Curious because have read elsewhere that guess is that the car uses number of GIDs to determine SOC% to display on the dash (and typically the LS GID% matches my dash SOC%, for the most part).

Edit: date of manufacture was actually Feb 2014, not Jan 2014 as originally stated.


Update on the above:
(km) (Ahr) (SOH) (Hx)
Feb 09, 2016 67,968 65.91 100% 101.0%
Mar 10, 2016 71,791 62.86 96% 96.7%
Mar 29, 2016 74,093 60.7 92% 93.2%
Apr 18, 2016 76,297 59.17 90% 90.1%
Apr 25, 2016 77,001 58.57 89% 88.9%
May 09, 2016 79,145 58.68 89% 89.1% QC'd 9 times on a road trip, total now 39
May 21, 2016 80,697 57.97 88% 87.6%
Jun 07, 2016 82,562 57.59 88% 86.8%
Jun 29, 2016 85,063 57.46 87% 86.5%
Jul 21, 2016 86,053 57.37 87% 86.3%
Aug 13, 2016 88,521 57.36 87% 86.3%
Aug 31, 2016 89,989 56.03 85% 83.3%
Sep 02, 2016 90,260 56.51 86% 84.4%
Sep 22, 2016 92,145 58.00 88% 87.7%
Oct 04, 2016 93,261 57.19 87% 85.9%
Oct 20, 2016 95,023 58.4 89% 88.5%
Oct 31, 2016 96,046 57.8 88% 87.2%

I'm not sure what to make of this... first my SOH was plummeting like a rock, then it flattened out. I thought I was going to lose a bar at the end of the summer, but then my SOH and AHr started lurching upwards again as the ambient temps came down... now at the end of October I'm a few % lower than the end of March (with similar ambient temps). Is this normal? I expect I'll lose my first bar once it starts to warm up again next spring.
Ocean Blue 2014 SL, 108,000km as of mid-Feb 2017, back up to 95% (from low of 86%!) SOH
Commuting 142km round-trip; level 2 at home, level 1 at work
http://kootenayEVfamily.ca

arnis
Posts: 725
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: 2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:56 am

Same happened with me. It went down 3-4% SOH during summer. Down to 90%.
As soon as autumn came it started going up again. Now it is stable at 94%. Whole month.

It appears health comes back when battery temp drops, something like 10*C doing that.
67000km for now. 2014 Leaf.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

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