Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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So, just to be clear: we can't talk about capacity loss in the 2011-21012 Leaf as it compares to the early 2013 and 4/13+ Leafs, and you also want the last word on that subject? Got it!
 
dhanson865 said:
dm33 said:
dhanson865 said:
Nissan reps and executives have said on more than one occasion that the 2013 rev was a packaging change more than a chemistry change and that the 2013 packs didn't change chemistry significantly.
Enormous epirical evidence clearly shows that chemistry was improved around April 2013. Batteries after that time degrade MUCH slower than those before.

We had a early 2013 that was totaled and replaced with a later 2013. It was day and night difference. The early 2013 degraded more in 6 months and 6,000 miles than the second car did in almost 3 years and 36,000 miles.

No, empirical evidence shows that degradation was reduced after build dates of 04/13. Chemistry is not the only thing that could be changed. Nissan stated that chemistry did not change significantly so it's reasonable to assume it's another factor or factors.

Again this is off topic in this thread and should be taken to another thread if you wish to continue discussing it.

IF that is true, and there really was no "significant" chemistry change, only "another factor or factors," it would seem logical that the 2011-2012 and early 2013 batteries could benefit with lesser degradation if one or more of these unknown and unmentioned by Nissan factors could be applied to these early batteries. And isn't Nissan thus penalizing early adopters by not telling them how they could save their batteries? Or is Nissan being a bit less than truthful (remember the "around 70%" in the Klee case) and really did change the chemistry and for whatever reason doesn't want people to know how poor the initial batteries really were?

It seems to be well established that heat, in combination with percentage of charge, and to a lesser extent time are the factors that doomed the initial batteries. Obviously the newer batteries can't change the time factor, so how has Nissan mitigated the heat + charge % without changing the chemistry?

As a chemistry major in college (long ago now), I am interested in this juxtaposition and would hope it could be discussed here.

As a seven capacity bar loser, with five remaining, I am definitely hoping the new batteries that Nissan just installed under warranty for me are more than just a repackaged mix of the defective properties of the original batteries.
 
LeafSpy data from my 2012 Leaf. I lost the 4th bar a couple of weeks ago. The "battery cells" screen shot is after completing a level 2 charge. The Leaf has been in hot, Texas climate since originally leased in Sept of 2012. Nissan has ordered a new battery for replacement - likely in December time-frame.


IMG_4621.PNG
IMG_4624.PNG
 
sub3marathonman said:
As a seven capacity bar loser, with five remaining, I am definitely hoping the new batteries that Nissan just installed under warranty for me are more than just a repackaged mix of the defective properties of the original batteries.

Lets hope that they ran out of old gen cells that degraded like hell for now. If they did then certainly new cells are better.
 
New to Leaf spy, charge to 100% yield ~90% SOC

Is this normal?

after charging the car overnight to 100%, I check the following night and I'm at:
88.1% SOC,
185 GIDFs (65.8%),
14.3KWh
41.65Ah
390.5V, at 81 degree F.

This is a 2011, with 24k miles with 60 months set to expire in January 2017

and I only have lost 2 bars so far, a long way to 8..., I live in Texas and I have babied the battery from the beginning (80% charge), and now, I think I'll end with a lemon, as I'll miss the boat for the battery replacement.

Is it normal that charging to 100% only yield 90-91% SOC.

I'm about to give the car to my sister in Canada, as a winter ride (I know the pack is not thermally protected).
She just have a 25 miles commute, but wonder what the cold will do...

Any thought?

sorry I cross posted to Range / Efficiency / Carwings before I found this thread
 
flybinne said:
New to Leaf spy, charge to 100% yield ~90% SOC

Is this normal?

after charging the car overnight to 100%, I check the following night and I'm at:
88.1% SOC,
185 GIDFs (65.8%),
14.3KWh
41.65Ah
390.5V, at 81 degree F.

This is a 2011, with 24k miles with 60 months set to expire in January 2017

and I only have lost 2 bars so far, a long way to 8..., I live in Texas and I have babied the battery from the beginning (80% charge), and now, I think I'll end with a lemon, as I'll miss the boat for the battery replacement.

Is it normal that charging to 100% only yield 90-91% SOC.

I'm about to give the car to my sister in Canada, as a winter ride (I know the pack is not thermally protected).
She just have a 25 miles commute, but wonder what the cold will do...

Any thought?

sorry I cross posted to Range / Efficiency / Carwings before I found this thread

Can you post your battery cell conditions (.png?) after a full level 2 charge? It could be compared directly with my post of a couple of days ago on this thread. FYI, I have recently lost the fourth bar and are scheduled for a free replacement under warranty in December. The Leaf has been in Houston, TX it's whole life. Having lost only 2 bars seems understated - but not familiar enough with LeafSpy readings yet to be conclusive.
 
Here's after a L2 charge to full from 8.4KWh, not sure why the images do not show up.
15.7KWh/24KWh is 65.4% if my maths are right...

but I guess Nissan use the Usable capacity of 21.8KWh, so I end up with 71.9%?

view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_fyjrbi6gmvdEZ2NzM4cjcwSlk/view?usp=sharing
open

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_fyjrbi6gmvU29SUThSRUVMWDQ

GIDS 202
KWh 15.7
Ah 45.19
AHr 437.19
SOH 71%
Hx 51.29
 
flybinne said:
New to Leaf spy, charge to 100% yield ~90% SOC
Not abnormal if you are charging to 100% from over 80%. Discharge the battery more and then do a 100% charge, get it down around 40%.

With 47 Ah remaining, you still have a ways before you get down to 8 bars capacity.
 
flybinne said:
Here's after a L2 charge to full from 8.4KWh

The "battery cell condition" screen print that I posted several days ago shows the "full" calculated Ahr capacity of ~42.7. This was 3 weeks after the dealer confirmed the 4 bar drop would qualify for warranty replacement - so I'm not sure what the exact Ahr capacity was at that time (just got LeafSpy working). Don't believe the "full" capacity dropped much during that time, which would indicate you have around 4-5 Ahrs to drop. As drees stated - not very likely without massive intervention (appears that some have tried with success in other posts). Best of luck.
 
I kinda wonder if outside the US, there are also many others complaining about capacity loss on '11 and '12 Leafs vs. the expectations that Nissan had set and what they'd set in their country.

I recently joined another one of many Leaf Facebook groups and came across https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1205324926205013/ that's in Japanese. That person is down 5 capacity bars at 233,333 km (144,986 miles). From the poor FB translation, I guess he got his Leaf in Nov 2011.
 
Was there are thread about who has the most capacity bars lost? http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_seven_battery_capacity_bars_.2852.5.25.29 had one guy w/6 CBs down.

If the car at https://www.facebook.com/NissanElectric/videos/10155285000802796/?comment_id=10155288824117796&reply_comment_id=10155329333302796&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D is fully booted, that confused guy is down 7 capacity bars. Earlier on he's confused at https://www.facebook.com/NissanElectric/videos/10155285000802796/?comment_id=10155288824117796&reply_comment_id=10155329333302796&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D says he has 3 bars, because he didn't count the red ones.
 
Hi there,

Sorry if I am not as knowledgeable as some others on here, but I wanted to get your take. We have a 2012 Leaf SL and its in service date was Jan. 3, 2013. I'm trying to estimate how likely it is we'd qualify for a replacement battery before the warranty expires on Jan 3, 2018?

Here are our stats now on leafspy lite: AHr: 47.80, SOH 72%, 384.0V 29,733 miles, 4QCs, 2391 L1/L2s

Its at 10 bars now, been almost a year since we lost the 2nd -- how likely do you think i is we'll see 8 bars by 1/8/18? We put about 10k mile sa year on the car the last 2 years.

thanks!
 
Ah, good question. Coastal southern California. Doesn't get too hot here but we can start quick charging more. :)
 
peakay said:
Ah, good question. Coastal southern California. Doesn't get too hot here but we can start quick charging more. :)

Took me about 7 months and 10,000 miles from February to October to get to 8 bars from where you're today, or close, but hotter inland LA area. I think you have a good chance to make it given there is more one year left, but QC as often as you can, the sooner you start the better, drive fast and hard to keep the pack warm.
 
Marktm said:
LeafSpy data from my 2012 Leaf. I lost the 4th bar a couple of weeks ago. The "battery cells" screen shot is after completing a level 2 charge. The Leaf has been in hot, Texas climate since originally leased in Sept of 2012. Nissan has ordered a new battery for replacement - likely in December time-frame.

The new battery was delivered to the dealer Tuesday of this week. Replacement is scheduled for next week. The EV group at Nissan gave me the correct delivery information a couple of weeks ago - best to call them if/when your dealer gets approval for replacement.

I just got LeafSpy a couple of weeks ago, so I don't know the actual Ahrs/SOH when I purchased the 9 bar car last January - so the only data point is the 42.73 AHrs/65% SOH when the fourth bar dropped.
 
We bought our '12 in March of this this year and it was on 11 bars. It dropped to 10 over the summer and to 9 about 3 weeks ago. The 700+ posts is a little daunting to sift through. What is the best process for me to start to inspect the battery and try to get it resolved?

We love the car and could honestly get by with the lower capacity if we had too as my commute is about 10 miles round trip, but I'd like to be able to drive 60 miles without having to charge the 3 or 4 times a month when the need presents itself. At present with the no accessories on the range says 58 after a full charge.

Many thanks.

Allen
 
You can only monitor battery. If you drop to 8 bars before 5 years and 60 000 miles
you will get replacement. Immediately visit dealer.
During winter capacity loss is very slow. You can not speed it up with normal driving.
You need multiple QC per day (at least 5 of them) or use heater under the Leaf in garage.


You can use LeafSpy with OBD ELM adapter if you want to monitor precisely.
Expect 10-30$.
 
arnis said:
If you drop to 8 bars before 5 years and 60 000 miles
you will get replacement.

Yes but isn't the warranty 8 years or 100,000 miles? What happens at say 80,000 miles if your range is down to just 10 miles? They won't replace the battery?
 
atikovi said:
arnis said:
If you drop to 8 bars before 5 years and 60 000 miles
you will get replacement.

Yes but isn't the warranty 8 years or 100,000 miles? What happens at say 80,000 miles if your range is down to just 10 miles? They won't replace the battery?

The longer warranty is for battery manufacturing defects only, not gradual capacity loss. 5 years/60k miles is the limit for capacity loss in 24kwh Leafs. The 30kwh Leaf batteries are warranted for 8 years/100k miles.
 
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