fooljoe
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:33 am
Delivery Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Seal Beach, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:14 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:you didnt. mileage and time changed but percentage loss did not
Do you see this documented anywhere? I know the warranty is still <9 bars before 8yrs/100k miles, but how do we know that <9 bars on a 30 kWh Leaf means <66% SOH like it does on a 24 kWh Leaf? Nissan could in theory have a different mapping of SOH to bars for the 30 kWh model.
RavCharge.com | 2012 Rav4-EV | 2011 Leaf SL w/QC batt replaced 11/20/15 | Clipper Creek CS-60 | EVSEupgraded 2013 Leaf EVSE | 3.84kw PV

GRA
Posts: 6648
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:52 pm

fooljoe wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:you didnt. mileage and time changed but percentage loss did not
Do you see this documented anywhere? I know the warranty is still <9 bars before 8yrs/100k miles, but how do we know that <9 bars on a 30 kWh Leaf means <66% SOH like it does on a 24 kWh Leaf? Nissan could in theory have a different mapping of SOH to bars for the 30 kWh model.

That's the beauty (for Nissan) of using bars - they can mean anything they want them to mean, and can be changed whenever they like. Only for the 24kWh was four bars legally defined as "approximately 70%" (66.25% actual), as a result of the amended settlement and Nissan's service manual. No such definition appears in the warranty for the 30kWh battery, so (absent another suit) 4 bars could represent 90%, 95% or 99% of loss if Nissan chooses. Which is why, given Nissan's past behavior, I think anyone who is willing to assume that a 4 bar loss of a 30kWh battery is approximately 70% remaining, is letting hope trump experience. A warranty should be written so that it's clear, unambiguous, not subject to change and legally enforceable - Nissan's warranty based on bars fails that test. For comparison, here's the 2016 LEAF capacity warranty:

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the lithium-ion Battery Coverage for
defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium-
ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss
[b]below nine bars of capacity as shown on the
vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period
of 60 months or 60,000 miles, for vehicles
equipped with the 24 kWh battery or 96 months or
100,000 miles for vehicles equipped with the 30
kWh battery, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge.[/b] If
possible, the lithium-ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original lithium-
ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If nec-
essary, the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with
either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery.
Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” con-
dition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will
provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.


Here's the capacity warranty for the Kia Soul:

Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery Capacity Coverage
The Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery (“EV Battery”)
Capacity warranty coverage period is 10 years or
100,000 miles from the Date of First Service,
whichever comes first, for capacity loss below 70%
of the original battery capacity. This warranty
covers repairs needed to return battery capacity to
70% of original battery capacity.
If possible, the
EV battery components will be repaired or replaced,
and the original EV Battery will be returned to the
vehicle. If necessary, the EV Battery will be
replaced with either a new or remanufactured
Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery. Any repair or
replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Polymer
Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your
Lithium-Ion Battery to an “as new” condition with
the original 100% battery capacity."
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:28 pm

*sigh*
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 8341 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 100% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1467
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Location: Tennessee

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:05 am

GRA wrote:That's the beauty (for Nissan) of using bars - they can mean anything they want them to mean, and can be changed whenever they like. Only for the 24kWh was four bars legally defined as "approximately 70%" (66.25% actual), as a result of the amended settlement and Nissan's service manual. No such definition appears in the warranty for the 30kWh battery, so (absent another suit) 4 bars could represent 90%, 95% or 99% of loss if Nissan chooses. Which is why, given Nissan's past behavior, I think anyone who is willing to assume that a 4 bar loss of a 30kWh battery is approximately 70% remaining, is letting hope trump experience. A warranty should be written so that it's clear, unambiguous, not subject to change and legally enforceable - Nissan's warranty based on bars fails that test.


+1 They really can do anything they want going forward, but doing so would be a huge mistake.

Nissan has a small amount of goodwill for being a leader in volume EV production but they burned some early adopters. Any gaming of the battery warranty going forward will just dig the hole deeper.

Tesla and Chevy will gladly take any business Nissan wants to give away by playing games with warranties.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
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xcopy
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:03 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jul 2015

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:45 am

Ooops. You're right. Newbie here. I was reading your post and saw that your timeframe and numbers for SOH was exactly the same as what I was seeing with my SOC and jumped to conclusion without paying attention to the SOH/C. Whew. My SOH is still 100%. Thanks.


Evoforce wrote:Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...

User avatar
turbo2ltr
Posts: 1376
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:13 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 185
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:29 am

So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

In any case, I'm afraid to post here (I need some wood to knock on) but I have 23k on it after 27 months, this will be the third summer coming up and I do not have any capacity bars lost. I'd say I have maybe around 2%-4% loss in range. (I used to get to work with 80% left, now it's 78 to 76% on average)

Overall it seems to be holding up quite nicely.

Up to a few months ago when carwings stopped working, I was charging to 80% when I got home from work, and charged to 100% a few hours before I left for work the next morning. I think this works well for balancing the pack as leaving it overnight gives it time for the cell temperatures to even out before balancing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope others are getting the same results.

I haven't figured out what I will do at the end of this lease. The model 3 is very enticing, but I expect we won't see it for at least two years.

Honestly, what I'd really want is a late model CNG Explorer so I don't need to keep a Leaf *and* a long distance car but not give up my carrying capacity and HOV privileges... I suppose I could do like everyone else and just drive in the HOV lane anyway. :roll:
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User avatar
Stanton
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1860
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Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:37 pm

@turbo2ltr good to hear that your 2013 Leaf is holding up (incredibly) well. I'm really impressed since it's not the "lizard" pack that many (including myself) were holding out for. Don't be a stranger!
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

LeftieBiker
Posts: 5904
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:51 pm

They seem to have made an improvement (of some sort) in the pack that was implemented in April of 2013. Leafs built from January through March of 2013 still lose multiple bars, while those made from April on lose mainly no bars*, or one bar...

* The SOH/capacity still declines, but most are still above 86%.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Evoforce
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:23 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:They seem to have made an improvement (of some sort) in the pack that was implemented in April of 2013. Leafs built from January through March of 2013 still lose multiple bars, while those made from April on lose mainly no bars*, or one bar...

* The SOH/capacity still declines, but most are still above 86%.


I hope he posts some data because that is not "normal" for any packs here. I'm glad that he seems to be having good luck though!
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1334
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:16 am

turbo2ltr wrote:So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

In any case, I'm afraid to post here (I need some wood to knock on) but I have 23k on it after 27 months, this will be the third summer coming up and I do not have any capacity bars lost. I'd say I have maybe around 2%-4% loss in range. (I used to get to work with 80% left, now it's 78 to 76% on average)

Overall it seems to be holding up quite nicely.

Up to a few months ago when carwings stopped working, I was charging to 80% when I got home from work, and charged to 100% a few hours before I left for work the next morning. I think this works well for balancing the pack as leaving it overnight gives it time for the cell temperatures to even out before balancing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope others are getting the same results.

I haven't figured out what I will do at the end of this lease. The model 3 is very enticing, but I expect we won't see it for at least two years.

Honestly, what I'd really want is a late model CNG Explorer so I don't need to keep a Leaf *and* a long distance car but not give up my carrying capacity and HOV privileges... I suppose I could do like everyone else and just drive in the HOV lane anyway. :roll:


I'm glad to hear your battery is holding up somewhat, but your math is a little off. From your statement, it sounds like you have lost a bit more than 2-4% (assuming, of course, a reasonable accuracy of the gauges - a questionable assumption with Nissan).

For your commute, you are using 22-24% of the battery when you used to use 20%. Assuming that your efficiency is the same, this is a loss of 9-17%, not 2-4%.

20% / 22% = 9% loss
20% / 24% = 17% loss

Put another way, if your original usable capacity is 21kWh, you used 4.2kWh (20%).
4.2kWh is 22% of 19kWh (9% loss)
4.2kWh is 24% of 17.5kWh (17% loss)

So your battery isn't really holding up as well as it seems. It sounds like you may soon lose a bar.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

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