VAbreeze
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Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:03 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2016
Location: Richmond, VA

2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:32 pm

I have been looking for a used 2013 Leaf in Virginia and finally was able to test some with Leaf Spy and my ODBC II connector. I was most interested in a SV, but Leaf Spy readings I got scared me away. I am new to all the values etc but I did a bunch of reading on the forums for months so I did have "book knowledge". I couldn't figure out how to get a screenshot with my Samsung galaxy SIII, so I am having to go by memory.

The mileage on this car was 41,500 which is significantly higher than any of the others I have seen and so I was already a little concerned before I used Leaf Spy Lite.

The SOH was close to 85% (could have been as much as 87), but the Nissan display still showed 12 bars. From what I have read it seems that this should mean that "one bar" will disappear soon. How long is anyone's guess.

The Ahr was around 56.5 I think.

The number of quick charges was 78. Much higher than I expected, but the car did have high miles so obviously the previous owner drove it all the time.

The number of L1/L2 charges was around 3780 !! This was the number that really scared me. I couldn't figure out how it was possible to charge that much. After reading the forums today, it seems that the counter may at least "double count" when the timer is used. I would think the timer would be a common;y used function, but I never saw this discussed before.

So I passed on this car. Thoughts? Can anyone help me with target values that would be "good/acceptable" for a 2013?

Thanks in advance.

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:47 pm

Consider the car to have 11 bars and base your decision on that. It actually seems to me that the battery was treated well, to have that much left after that many miles and almost 3 years. L-1 charges seem to get over-reported - don't worry about that.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

mihird
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Location: East Bay CA

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:39 pm

I returned my 2013 Leaf with 46500 miles on it (1500 over the leased 45000 miles). I had lost 1 bar, done plenty of L2 charges, and the car still returned 75 miles of range. I do not have LeafSpy but I would presume, my battery would be in a similar state.

Nothing unusual about it. I think, the 2013-2016 24Kwh models pretty much have useful range until 60,000 miles. They will only work from 60,000-100,000 miles if 50-55 mile range fits in your lifestyle.

This is all the more reason, all EV makers need to hit the 200 mile range mark to keep the battery usable for 10 years/150,000 miles.
1st Leaf : 2013 SV (2013-2016)
2nd Leaf : 2016 SV (2016-?) acquired - Jan 2016
3rd Leaf : 2015 SV (2016-?) - acquired - June 2016

GerryAZ
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Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:01 am

If a timer is set and the car is plugged in before the start time, the L1/L2 count will increase by 1 because the car checks the EVSE to prepare for charging. The L1/L2 count will increase by 1 when the timer starts charging so the total charge count will increase by 2 for a single charge event if a timer is used and the car is plugged in before the start time. If climate control timer is used or climate control is started remotely while plugged in (after charging is complete), the L1/L2 count will increase by 1 so a single overnight charge event with timer charge start and timer climate control start would increase the L1/L2 charge count by a total of 3 counts (at least for 2011 through 2015 models). If the car is plugged in after the charge timer start time and climate control is started while the car is still charging, the L1/L2 charge count would only increase by 1 for a single overnight charge event. Therefore, I would not worry about charge counts when looking at a used LEAF as long as the AHr, SOH, and Hx numbers look good.

The numbers you read from the 2013 look reasonable for a car with 40k miles in a moderate climate, but indicate it is probably close to losing the first capacity bar.

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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Jefe
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Leaf Number: 405983
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Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:39 am

VAbreeze wrote:
So I passed on this car. Thoughts? Can anyone help me with target values that would be "good/acceptable" for a 2013?

Thanks in advance.


Good/acceptable is going to be relative. And each car is different based on how it was driven, how it was charged and where it grew up. My '13 SV has 17K miles on it. It was from a lease near Chicago. Right now, AHr is 65.02, Hx = 99.3%, SOH= 99%, and L1/L2=648.

I got super lucky though because I didn't have LeafSpy at the time I purchased. You are well ahead of me there.
2013 SV + Premium Pkg. No QC.

VAbreeze
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Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:03 pm
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Location: Richmond, VA

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:39 am

Thanks for the comments to date. The L1/L2 counts being affected by the timer was a surprise and is a little disappointing because I was hoping to be able to look at average lifetime miles per charge by dividing the odometer reading by the count. The timer factor kills that, but I guess a high number can lead you to assume that the previous owner was a "techie" that took advantage of the timer settings. I would further guess that the high L1/L2 counts would be more likely on a SV than a S because the S timer is awkward at best (even though if an owner figured it out it may have been a set and forget too).

So I guess there isn't any way to determine the charging history as some tend to suggest is a factor to consider.

I do like the general rule of a 50-55 mile range for 60-100K miles and that does bring the point home about needing higher capacity batteries especially if one tends toward the long vehicle ownership side. Of course, you could also spring for a new battery for $5500 and have a "new" car again - although that seems too costly.

I guess I can see why so many people leased the vehicles. I have never gone that route before since I am a buy and hold type.

dex8425
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:47 am
Delivery Date: 01 Feb 2016
Leaf Number: 024494
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:47 pm

We just bought a 2012 SV, advertised as having 12 bars. When I hooked up leafspy, it read ahr of 56.3 and SOH 85%, which was surprising because the car is from seattle and only has 10k miles and 3 quick charges. We bought the car anyway, figuring the battery life is only part of the cost of the car. Similar 12 bar cars were right around the same price point (9800) and one had a SOH of 91% but had 41k miles. We figured the overall newness of the car we bought would be worth the fact that it's really an 11 bar car.

Hopefully the degredation remains slow with my 8 mile 40mph commute and a cold Minneapolis climate.
Still not sure I made the right decision though.
2012 Blue Ocean, 17,4xx miles, Ahr 54.94, 11 bars
Bought used 2/1/16, .

mihird
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:48 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Mar 2013
Location: East Bay CA

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:31 pm

VAbreeze wrote:I do like the general rule of a 50-55 mile range for 60-100K miles and that does bring the point home about needing higher capacity batteries especially if one tends toward the long vehicle ownership side. Of course, you could also spring for a new battery for $5500 and have a "new" car again - although that seems too costly.



A $5500-$8500 battery replacement is actually not that costly if it has to occur between 100K-150K miles of use (depending on battery capacity). the problem with the current 24-30Kwh batteries is that, they need a replacement much sooner unless 50-55 miles of range fits in your daily lifestyle. $5500 battery replacement after 60,000 miles is a costly propostion.

It is back to that most commonly held view point that 200 miles or range is the magic number for the common man's EV adoption. Very few people need 200 miles or range on a daily basis, but it takes the range anxiety out for all. The variation in range by seasons also becomes less of an issue with so much range. And it can be used for the occasional 300-500 mile weekend road trip. It also keeps the car stay usable for 10 years/150,000 by providing at least a 100 miles of daily range. Finally, it can be fully recharged overnight in 8-9 hours - which is again a sweet spot for daily overnight charging.
1st Leaf : 2013 SV (2013-2016)
2nd Leaf : 2016 SV (2016-?) acquired - Jan 2016
3rd Leaf : 2015 SV (2016-?) - acquired - June 2016

mihird
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:48 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Mar 2013
Location: East Bay CA

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:32 pm

VAbreeze wrote:I do like the general rule of a 50-55 mile range for 60-100K miles and that does bring the point home about needing higher capacity batteries especially if one tends toward the long vehicle ownership side. Of course, you could also spring for a new battery for $5500 and have a "new" car again - although that seems too costly.



A $5500-$8500 battery replacement is actually not that costly if it has to occur between 100K-150K miles of use (depending on battery capacity). the problem with the current 24-30Kwh batteries is that, they need a replacement much sooner unless 50-55 miles of range fits in your daily lifestyle. $5500 battery replacement after 60,000 miles is a costly proposition.

It is back to that most commonly held view point that 200 miles or range is the magic number for the common man's EV adoption. Very few people need 200 miles or range on a daily basis, but it takes the range anxiety out for all. The variation in range by seasons also becomes less of an issue with so much range on tap. And it can be used for the occasional 300-500 mile weekend road trip. It also keeps the car stay usable for 10 years/150,000 by providing at least a 100 miles of daily range. Finally, it can be fully recharged overnight in 8-9 hours - which is again a sweet spot for daily overnight charging.
1st Leaf : 2013 SV (2013-2016)
2nd Leaf : 2016 SV (2016-?) acquired - Jan 2016
3rd Leaf : 2015 SV (2016-?) - acquired - June 2016

HornsKeith
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:24 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Mar 2016
Location: Hampton Roads, VA

Re: 2013 SV with Leaf spy results that scared me off - Opinions?

Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:29 pm

VAbreeze wrote:So I passed on this car. Thoughts? Can anyone help me with target values that would be "good/acceptable" for a 2013?


Interestingly, we drove up to Richmond to look at several used Leaf's, and this was one of them. We passed as well, partly due to the miles and condition, and partly due to the fact that this dealership had unreasonable ideas about what constituted market value. They seemed to believe that one should take market value and then add on $1500 worth of fees (total loss protection, documentation and processing, etc) before TT&L. I respectfully disagreed.

Keith
2015 Leaf SV w/ premium

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