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Interview with Evgo execs indicates they almost get the concept of public DC:

...In order for a network to be successful, it needs to serve the customer where and when they need it. We have found that what drivers want is ease of access and something to do while they charge.

...We have a number of important factors we consider in charger placement, everything from safety to ease of access to hours of availability. The placement of a Freedom Station is generally within feet, not miles, of a major thoroughfare or freeway...

https://chargedevs.com/features/nrg-evgo-on-the-move-its-dc-fast-charging-network-passes-major-milestones-full-interview/

In practice, however many of their DCs in the San Francisco Bay area are adoptees, poorly located at Nissan dealerships.

Other of their DCs are placed at places where parking time frequently exceeds the required charging time, such as shopping centers, inviting abuse by those who leave their BEVs unattended for long periods.

And the pricing structure means charges per kWh for occasional users are quite high, especially if you only need a quickie charge of a few minutes, to pick up a few kWh.
 
edatoakrun said:
Interview with Evgo execs indicates they almost get the concept of public DC:
...
And the pricing structure means charges per kWh for occasional users are quite high, especially if you only need a quickie charge of a few minutes, to pick up a few kWh.
Indeed, the prices on the no monthly fee plan at http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-francisco-bay-area/ are nutty for the above scenario. $4.95 just to start a DC FC session?

At $4/gal gas (not that high right now) and if my Prius were only getting 40 mpg, I could go almost 50 miles on that $4.95. Not to mention that I could have an "adventure" if the spot's blocked, DC FC is broken and I have to wait around and pay 20 cents/minute...

All that will be moot for me Monday, 7/27. I will no longer have a Leaf w/CHAdeMO inlet. Oh, but I was never an NRG eVgo customer in the first place. Don't even have an account w/them and I've never paid a cent for public charging.
 
Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?

I hope that something was lost in translation in the release below, and that the new DC stations will actually provide opportunities for large numbers of DC Capable BEVs to charge simultaneously (providing reliability) that they will be located where BEV drivers want to use other facilities and that the guidance will allow those seeking DC charging to easily filter out the masses of slow AC sites and unreliable or unavailable DC charge sites.

If you click the link and look at the central California routes mapped, ~only the highway 50 and 80 routes from Sacramento to Tahoe are still lacking DC charge sites (such as they are) so let's hope the new stations proposed on those and the eastern routes are not just more of the same.

NEDO asks Nissan and Kanematsu to analyze EV use in California


...The NEDO project will seek to encourage the use of electric vehicles for longer distances and inter-city driving by installing and maintaining multiple quick chargers along specific inter-city routes. Nissan and Kanematsu will collect and analyze data on EV driving patterns in California, and create a suitable model to help promote more extensive use of electric vehicles in the state and beyond.

With the help of the California state government, and U.S. utility company NRG eVgo*, Nissan and Kanematsu plan to place additional quick chargers at suitable locations along inter-city freeways in Northern California, and use project-specific information services to guide EV users to the most efficient chargers along the route. The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs.
.
Nissan's role in the project will be to install and operate the quick chargers, and analyze any changes in EV use that result

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2015/_STORY/151021-02-e.html?rss
 
edatoakrun said:
Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?
The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.
 
I'm not really sure why so many are arguing a moot point about needing an infrastructure to "quick charge" to go from "Reno to Tahoe", or the "problem of limited range". I have a 2015 with a 6.6 and quick charger. I have the car 11 months, with 11k miles on it. 1) This car is not designed for interstate driving. 2) I understand that frequent use of the level 3 chargers is not good for the battery. I will never use my car for long driving, but have the capacity for the future if they (the level 3 chargers) become popular AND FREE on highways. I WILL NOT PAY 12 DOLLARS TO CHARGE MY CAR WITH NRG! 3) I am surprised that I haven't see more talk about the "CHARGEPOINT" national network of FREE level 2 charging which is FREE FREE FREE (Chargepoint.com). All you need is the computer or an app on your phone to find a near charging station (in my area, long island, ny, they are about 5 miles away (max) from any point you may be on the island. I am so happy with my car, I cannot put it into words... I have a level 2 charger (Schneider Electric) at home which charges 80% in 2.5 hours. I work near a Chargepoint charger (level 2), have a trailer hitch and bike rack on my car. I charge FREE every day and have a 7 minute bike ride to work, and pay ZERO traveling expenses with my 300 miles weekly driving! I can with confidence guess that all of the naysayers on this forum who complain of "limited range" (a) DO NOT own an electric car and are just flapping their gums, OR (B) are shills or plants from other places with an alternate agenda that are trying to put down the development of electric cars. I would love to hear from REAL Leaf owners about their "range anxiety", because my experience with this technology has been perfect.
 
powersurge said:
I'm not really sure why so many are arguing a moot point about needing an infrastructure to "quick charge" to go from "Reno to Tahoe", or the "problem of limited range". I have a 2015 with a 6.6 and quick charger. I have the car 11 months, with 11k miles on it. 1) This car is not designed for interstate driving. 2) I understand that frequent use of the level 3 chargers is not good for the battery. I will never use my car for long driving, but have the capacity for the future if they (the level 3 chargers) become popular AND FREE on highways. I WILL NOT PAY 12 DOLLARS TO CHARGE MY CAR WITH NRG! 3) I am surprised that I haven't see more talk about the "CHARGEPOINT" national network of FREE level 2 charging which is FREE FREE FREE (Chargepoint.com). All you need is the computer or an app on your phone to find a near charging station (in my area, long island, ny, they are about 5 miles away (max) from any point you may be on the island. I am so happy with my car, I cannot put it into words... I have a level 2 charger (Schneider Electric) at home which charges 80% in 2.5 hours. I work near a Chargepoint charger (level 2), have a trailer hitch and bike rack on my car. I charge FREE every day and have a 7 minute bike ride to work, and pay ZERO traveling expenses with my 300 miles weekly driving! I can with confidence guess that all of the naysayers on this forum who complain of "limited range" (a) DO NOT own an electric car and are just flapping their gums, OR (B) are shills or plants from other places with an alternate agenda that are trying to put down the development of electric cars. I would love to hear from REAL Leaf owners about their "range anxiety", because my experience with this technology has been perfect.

Never had range anxiety, then again I knew how batteries worked. No difference between the car and a rc car or cell phone battery. AH / load = run time, run time * by speed = range.

I do 120 to 140Km a day in mine, and not once have I ever ran out!
 
EVforRobert said:
edatoakrun said:
Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?
The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.
eVgo already installed QCs in Gilroy and Salinas, and there's a (poorly located) Blink QC in Monterey, so really, as Ed mentions there's "nothing to see here", except east of Sac. With those in place, even gen 1 BEVs will be able to reach Tahoe from Sacramento.

They'll need a lot more sites and QCs per site once the 2nd gen. affordable BEVs arrive, because those will be reasonably practical for shorter road trips (<=1 enroute QC each way) from the Bay Area.
 
GRA said:
EVforRobert said:
edatoakrun said:
Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?
The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.
eVgo already installed QCs in Gilroy and Salinas, and there's a (poorly located) Blink QC in Monterey, so really, as Ed mentions there's "nothing to see here", except east of Sac. With those in place, even gen 1 BEVs will be able to reach Tahoe from Sacramento.

They'll need a lot more sites and QCs per site once the 2nd gen. affordable BEVs arrive, because those will be reasonably practical for shorter road trips (<=1 enroute QC each way) from the Bay Area.

OK, so they put one QC in Gilroy and another in Salinas. I hardly call that covering the trip to Monterey. If you absolutely have to get there, you will need about half a dozen QC's, you know, like a gas station has.

You also need a social way to make people move their vehicle when they are done. Imagine what would happen if someone parked their car at a gas pump for an hour like they do at QC's! Or had their family pick them up in a gas car and take them home?
 
EVforRobert said:
GRA said:
EVforRobert said:
<snip>
The map shows new coverage to Monterey as well.
California is trying to leverage existing EVs so they may be driven father. This will displace ICE vehicles and improve emissions.

They say, "The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs."

The only limitation I can see is that most lease their EVs and have mileage penalties in their agreement.
eVgo already installed QCs in Gilroy and Salinas, and there's a (poorly located) Blink QC in Monterey, so really, as Ed mentions there's "nothing to see here", except east of Sac. With those in place, even gen 1 BEVs will be able to reach Tahoe from Sacramento.

They'll need a lot more sites and QCs per site once the 2nd gen. affordable BEVs arrive, because those will be reasonably practical for shorter road trips (<=1 enroute QC each way) from the Bay Area.
OK, so they put one QC in Gilroy and another in Salinas. I hardly call that covering the trip to Monterey. If you absolutely have to get there, you will need about half a dozen QC's, you know, like a gas station has.

You also need a social way to make people move their vehicle when they are done. Imagine what would happen if someone parked their car at a gas pump for an hour like they do at QC's! Or had their family pick them up in a gas car and take them home?
Yes, more QCs per site would be nice, although at least the Gilroy one has two (dual-standard) QCs, and Salinas has 1 CHAdeMO + 1 CHAdeMO/CCS. Considering it took almost 5 years to get Gilroy despite constant requests for it, and not much less for Salinas, it's a huge improvement. There are also lots of QCs in the South Bay, so getting to Gilroy is easy, or you can skip it and make Salinas. And there are also dual QCs in Santa Cruz and Watsonville, so you also have those routes as an option. By next year there should be affordable BEVs that can make it non-stop one-way with no trouble (a 30kWh LEAF can probably do it if you live on/south of 92), so the critical need will be for more L2s in Monterey/Carmel/Pacific Grove, rather than more QCs en route.

As for getting people to move, the easiest way is to charge them a higher rate for time once the charge rate has fallen below a certain amount or stopped. Blink is already implementing this in some areas.
 
Nissan's comments RE public infrastructure are common sense.

What you want to bet that most of $2 billion will instead be wasted on Hydrogen pumps and slow AC sites?


Nissan: $2B in VW diesel settlement for EV infrastructure could be a boon for all (except hydrogen)

...Nissan sent its own letter to the DOJ that said the automaker wants to "serve as an ally" so that the money is used, "in a way that is beneficial for the entire industry." Nissan said, "We believe that this funding could be instrumental in supporting a continued 'Infrastructure for All' approach that benefits all automotive OEMs and importantly, increases the pace of EV adoption." [Note: these quotes come from Nissan, which shared them with AutoblogGreen in a discussion about the contents of the letter, but are not necessarily directly from the letter itself.]

Nissan's point comes from its history in EV infrastructure investment. It told the DOJ that is has invested millions in open standard fast charging in the US, "and has deployed more than half of the 50kW dual CHAdeMO and CCS equipment available in the market today." Remember, Nissan Leafs cannot use the CCS plugs, so the automaker is not just full of talk when it comes to making investments that can help grow the EV pie, rather than just one company. Nissan did say, though, that the money should not be used for any hydrogen stations.

Here's what Nissan told the DOJ about how the money should be used:

Funding should be allocated to projects that are led, organized and managed at a national level to avoid a patchwork of initiatives driven by
individual states or local entities that are not holistic and/or coordinated.

Funding that supports Fast Charging must include multi-standard/open-standard equipment (including CHAdeMO).

Public DC Fast Charging should be prioritized over other efforts, and funding should be allocated towards areas of the ZEV industry that
suffer the largest market failures due to limited short-term ROI leading to a lack of private-sector investment.

Funding should address the need for a National High-Speed Fast Charging Network along interstates

All networked equipment funded under the ZEV Investment Commitment should support the Open Charge Point Protocol (OPCC) to allow choice between network providers, and it should allow for open credit card payment methods (EMV and mobile payments) without requiring drivers to sign-up for proprietary network memberships...
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/25/nissan-2b-vw-diesel-settlement-ev-infrastructure/
 
What?? Bet on common sense in Washington (DC)?

EV proliferation/fast charging combined with (hopefully soon) major upticks in battery capacity and V2H and/or V2G to allow significant early morning load shifting based on EV use profiles, could significantly improve our existing US energy structure.

In the 9 months I've owned my Leaf, I've had many thoughtful questions/discussions about the usefulness of a 60 mile range EV. Most would try an EV IF the range was 100 - 150 miles plus, lots of 15-30 min charge stations and a cost competitive with inexpensive compacts. Tough combination, but likely a natural progression to that end.
 
Progress for Highways 50 and 80 in Central California:

...A new corridor of 30-minute fast-charge stations launched Monday in Northern California. When it’s fully operational next spring, it’ll include more than 20 locations between Monterey and Lake Tahoe...
http://www.capradio.org/articles/2016/11/14/new-charging-stations-for-electric-vehicles-in-northern-california/

...installation of the 50 fast chargers along the corridor is expected to be completed by March 2017...
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/-drivethearc-ev-fast-charging-corridor-breaks-ground-in-northern-california

Map of charge sites:

http://drivethearc.com/locations/

Some of the sites on that map are already on plugshare-such as the Four-charger site at El Dorado Hills:

https://www.plugshare.com/

Nice to see a semi-governmental program actually get things done.

Who is funding the project?
As part of its mission to improve energy conservation and promote new energy technologies, Japan’s largest public research and development management organization — New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization (NEDO) — is funding “DRIVETHEARC” project...
http://drivethearc.com/about/

Too bad very little is being done by our own government or any other entities to provide public DC on the rest of america's interstate highways.

edatoakrun said:
Do you think this updated announcement (I think the route map is new) amounts to just an extension of the present DC infrastructure east of Sacramento, or maybe something more?

I hope that something was lost in translation in the release below, and that the new DC stations will actually provide opportunities for large numbers of DC Capable BEVs to charge simultaneously (providing reliability) that they will be located where BEV drivers want to use other facilities and that the guidance will allow those seeking DC charging to easily filter out the masses of slow AC sites and unreliable or unavailable DC charge sites.

If you click the link and look at the central California routes mapped, ~only the highway 50 and 80 routes from Sacramento to Tahoe are still lacking DC charge sites (such as they are) so let's hope the new stations proposed on those and the eastern routes are not just more of the same.

NEDO asks Nissan and Kanematsu to analyze EV use in California


...The NEDO project will seek to encourage the use of electric vehicles for longer distances and inter-city driving by installing and maintaining multiple quick chargers along specific inter-city routes. Nissan and Kanematsu will collect and analyze data on EV driving patterns in California, and create a suitable model to help promote more extensive use of electric vehicles in the state and beyond.

With the help of the California state government, and U.S. utility company NRG eVgo*, Nissan and Kanematsu plan to place additional quick chargers at suitable locations along inter-city freeways in Northern California, and use project-specific information services to guide EV users to the most efficient chargers along the route. The companies will then assess whether the combined hardware/software model can successfully encourage users to drive longer distances in EVs.
.
Nissan's role in the project will be to install and operate the quick chargers, and analyze any changes in EV use that result

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2015/_STORY/151021-02-e.html?rss
 
Great plan, to "focus on 150 kW and 320 kW DC fast chargers; each station will have 5 plugs on average" but pardon my skepticism about completion on schedule...

California ARB receives VW’s 1st $200M, 30-month ZEV investment plan
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/03/20170315-vwzev.html

full plan here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/341914116/vwinvestplan1-031317?ad_group=&campaign=Skimbit%2C+Ltd.&content=10079&irgwc=1&keyword=ft750noi&medium=affiliate&source=impactradius
 
What could you possibly do with a 150 or 320KW charger? On the Leaf, you cant go any faster than the CHADeMO or level 2 charger. Even then, they all say that CHADeMO is bad for the battery.. Are we trying to electrocute Godzilla?

Even if they start increasing the potential rate of charge on new cars in the future, there has to be an electrical (physics-related) limit on how fast you can charge a battery. People seem to be thinking that we will be charging in 5 minutes (like filling up on gas) in the near future... IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...
 
powersurge said:
What could you possibly do with a 150 or 320KW charger? On the Leaf, you cant go any faster than the CHADeMO or level 2 charger. Even then, they all say that CHADeMO is bad for the battery..

Even if they start increasing the potential rate of charge on new cars in the future, there has to be an electrical (physics-related) limit on how fast you can charge a battery. People seem to be thinking that we will be charging in 5 minutes (like filling up on gas) in the near future... IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...

Not according to Ford:
http://papers.sae.org/2017-01-1204/

We try to understand the fast recharge capability of Li-ion batteries and its effect on capacity degradation. We find out that 5 Ah prismatic Li-ion cells can be fully recharged in 3 minutes under a constant rate of 20C, or in 2 min (25.5C) from 0% to 85% SOC (state of charge) without undue stresses. We cycle the battery at 16C charge rate from 0 to 100%SOC and do not see any unexpected battery capacity loss in 50 cycles, where half of the cycles are 1C-rate charge as a reference capacity check. We realize that the batteries under the fast charge study do not experience mass transport limitations in either solid electrodes or the electrolyte system.
 
Yeah, the current LEAF isn't going to go any faster than 125A @ 395V (49 kW) maximum.

If the LEAF had active cooling, I suspect that the batteries would not suffer any significant amount from QC, even if you pushed the charge rate faster. It's the elevated cell temperatures from QC that primarily accelerates the rate of capacity loss.

An optimized charge rate would apply a modified constant current / constant voltage charge profile where it would temporarily allow a higher maximum voltage while charging.

Right now the LEAF limits cell voltages to around 4.12V while charging and doesn't let the cells exceed this. During a QC, this starts limiting the amount of current you can apply well before the pack gets to "100%" due to internal resistance.

But if you let the cell voltages get higher than that, say 4.20V / cell, for example (403V pack voltage), this would allow you to apply more current and charge faster. Periodically you might want to briefly reduce the charge rate to allow the cell voltage to get back down to a normal 4.12V to ensure that you haven't over charged any cells. Or at least you might only apply the "over-boost mode" QC strategy up to a calculated SOC of say 80-90% before reducing current to ensure that you don't have any cells over the normal 4.12V.

Ford must be doing something similar when charging at 16C or 20C in their tests, but probably pushing even higher voltages into the cells.
 
drees said:
Yeah, the current LEAF isn't going to go any faster than 125A @ 395V (49 kW) maximum.

I hit 397 volts in my 2017 LEAF, but I don't think a LEAF will allow more than 120 amps? I haven't had the new LEAF on a 125 amp charger yet to confirm my fuzzy memory from 5 years without LEAF ownership.

If the LEAF had active cooling, I suspect that the batteries would not suffer any significant amount from QC, even if you pushed the charge rate faster. It's the elevated cell temperatures from QC that primarily accelerates the rate of capacity loss.

It's possible that the cells in my 2017 are the same cells used in the 2018 LEAF (Just double the quantity). That would be 2 cells in series for 30kWh, 3 cells in series for 45kWh, and 4 cells in series for 60kWh.

Anyhoo, I took the new LEAf up to the OC for its maiden voyage. 93 miles each way to Disneyland. I stopped in San Clemente for some electro-juice, and the little LEAF held 100A on the BTC charger until 394 volts and 83%. I'll need a Gidmeter to check out the 125 amp stations.

One note; the battery had 9 temperature bars with ambient temps around 60F on the last of 3 charge stops over about 10 hours.
 
edatoakrun said:
Great plan

California ARB receives VW’s 1st $200M, 30-month ZEV investment plan
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/03/20170315-vwzev.html
The GCC report provides an excellent detailed summary (as usual).

My own article at HybridCars offers some broader perspectives and comparisons of how VW's plan compares to today's Tesla network both in California and nationally. It also mentions last year's CEC grants which will also help to incrementally expand CHAdeMO/CCS fast charging in California.

http://www.hybridcars.com/vw-reveals-tesla-like-ev-charging-plans/
 
My city has (I think) two types of QCs:

  • EVgo's DC charger, at $10+ a pop
  • Chargepoint's DC charger, which is free
Guess which one I use?

(Oh, if you count the SMSA, there's an oddball, a Greenlots DC charger--also free--about 15 miles north of town.)

I feel bad for people where EVgo is the predominant network... that's damned pricey.
 
annabel398 said:
My city has (I think) two types of QCs:

  • EVgo's DC charger, at $10+ a pop
  • Chargepoint's DC charger, which is free
Guess which one I use?

(Oh, if you count the SMSA, there's an oddball, a Greenlots DC charger--also free--about 15 miles north of town.)

I feel bad for people where EVgo is the predominant network... that's damned pricey.

I love the EVgo network, and I really don't like going to broken / crowded free sites. I particularly like that they have now installed over 900 DC fast chargers.

I pay just $14.95 per month, and 10 cents per minute. My cost per mile using EVgo is on par with me charging at home at about 6.5 cents per mile.

A typical fillup in my new 2017 LEAF-S is just 30-45 minutes, so just $3 to $4.50. Just using it twice per month pays that monthly fee, and everything after that is really cheap.

I'll happily support such a low cost, widely dispersed charging infrastructure, and you're welcome to contribute what you do.
 
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