Today I drove my ICE Car, Do you still use your ICE car?

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Funnily enough yes just this weekend for first time in two+ mos. Driving to Atlanta and back - app. 850 miles - is not likely in an EV any time soon so we took the CMax Energi. Got about 36mpg mostly 75-80 including heavy rain one way, which isn't that bad, but still hate hearing engines.

This usage pattern is why I don't jump on the "EV range is the be all and end all" bandwagon personally. Every few months I take road trips, but the best hypermiler in a brand new Tesla 85 could not do the vast majority of them, and every other day is well within the bounds of even a degraded Leaf battery running heat every second. Logically if I lived alone I'd just rent an ICE for those few trips, but since we need two cars anyway and the Energi can go all EV for my wife's needs 80-90% of the time it made sense to have the long range option built in. Pity the Volt is just a horrible ergonomic mess for us or that would be 99%.
 
EvansvilleLeaf said:
... Driving to Atlanta and back - app. 850 miles - is not likely in an EV any time soon...

... Every few months I take road trips, but the best hypermiler in a brand new Tesla 85 could not do the vast majority of them ...
Click to expand...
Maybe an S85 couldn't do the others, but couldn't it (or a Model 3) do Atlanta and back with only 1 stop, if a supercharger went up outside of Nashville?

Regardless, I'm amazed to see the number of superchargers (163 in the states now), and they are still adding more. Time flies, and (everything about) Tesla is fast!
 
About 9 months have passed since I looked at vehicle usage:
RegGuheert on January 30 said:
Code: 
Vehicle                          odometer   miles/year   Efficiency   gal/year   Fuel $/year   Fuel cents/mi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011 Nissan LEAF                   23,397      6750        4 mi/kWh       0         $169           2.5
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid            99,610      6400       48 mi/gal     133         $333           5.2
2002 Ford E350                     68,967      1500       13 mi/gal     115         $288          19.2
1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager      ~103,000        00       22 mi/gal       0           $0          11.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fleet:                           ~294,974    14,650                     248         $790           5.4  

Assumptions:
- Electricity costs $0.10 per kWh
- Gasoline costs $2.50 per gallon
- Minivan is parked right now, but it is still alive
Click to expand...
Code: 
Vehicle                          odometer   miles/year   Efficiency   gal/year   Fuel $/year   Fuel cents/mi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011 Nissan LEAF                   28,081      7026        4 mi/kWh       0         $211           3.0
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid           102,550      4410       48 mi/gal      92         $229           5.2
2002 Ford E350                     70,088      1700       13 mi/gal     131         $326          19.2
1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager      ~103,000        00       22 mi/gal       0           $0          11.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fleet:                           ~303,719    13,136                     223         $766           5.8  

Assumptions:
- Electricity costs $0.12 per kWh
- Gasoline costs $2.50 per gallon
- Minivan is parked right now, but it is still alive
A couple of interesting observations when comparing the recent results with 9 months ago:

- Total annual miles driven has dropped by about 1500 mi/year or 10%.
- Our annual overall fuel expense for the year has dropped by about $120. (Most of that savings was due to not driving the cars as much.)
- Our overall fuel expense per mile INCREASED from 5.4c/mile to 5.8c/mile. (Even though we increased the miles with the LEAF, we decreased the miles on the Honda and increased miles drive in the big van. The miles on the big van tend to dominate cost/mile.)
- We put significantly fewer miles on the Honda, mainly because it did not get used for any long trips during this period. Interestingly, I recently set a new efficiency record for a long(-ish) trip in the Honda: 64 MPG over a 172-mile round-trip. This is pretty impressive considering the vehicle and its batteries are about 13.5 years old! (And the tires have over 60,000 miles on them and they are still in great shape! I expect to get over 100,000 miles on this set of Michelins.)

The overall picture is about to change significantly next week when we drive the E350 (towing a trailer) 2000 miles. I will try to update to see the overall annualized impact of that trip. (Note that nearly all of the trips in the E350 these are made by others who are borrowing that vehicle, including this upcoming trip. That will likely change when one of our children heads off to college next year. The E350 is our college hauler.)
 
You also have to remember that some, probably not all, of the gas savings may be due to low gas prices as well --- even in gas tax heavy IL, I've seen a pretty decent reduction in gas cost use -- haven't gone to the extent of tracking quite as bit like you have (although I do use Quicken to track all our finances; not down to mileage though!).

I've got a decent size trip coming up soon -- about 2,500 miles; will also need to bring back some big stuff so about the only EV that could handle it would perhaps be a Tesla X; we'll be taking our Touareg as I wasn't on the waiting list for it. We could also handle towing a 7,700 lb trailer but not on this trip; not the capacity of an E350 but not bad for a mid-size SUV.
 
About 17 months have passed since I looked at vehicle usage:
RegGuheert on January 30 said:
Code: 
Vehicle                          odometer   miles/year   Efficiency   gal/year   Fuel $/year   Fuel cents/mi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011 Nissan LEAF                   23,397      6750        4 mi/kWh       0         $169           2.5
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid            99,610      6400       48 mi/gal     133         $333           5.2
2002 Ford E350                     68,967      1500       13 mi/gal     115         $288          19.2
1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager       102,187        00       22 mi/gal       0           $0          11.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fleet:                           ~294,974    14,650                     248         $790           5.4  

Assumptions:
- Electricity costs $0.10 per kWh
- Gasoline costs $2.50 per gallon
- Minivan is parked right now, but it is still alive
Click to expand...
RegGuheert on October 2 said:
Code: 
Vehicle                          odometer   miles/year   Efficiency   gal/year   Fuel $/year   Fuel cents/mi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011 Nissan LEAF                   28,081      7026        4 mi/kWh       0         $211           3.0
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid           102,550      4410       48 mi/gal      92         $229           5.2
2002 Ford E350                     70,088      1700       13 mi/gal     131         $326          19.2
1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager       102,187        00       22 mi/gal       0           $0          11.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fleet:                           ~303,719    13,136                     223         $766           5.8  

Assumptions:
- Electricity costs $0.12 per kWh
- Gasoline costs $2.50 per gallon
- Minivan is parked right now, but it is still alive
Click to expand...
Code: 
Vehicle                          odometer   miles/year   Efficiency   gal/year   Fuel $/year   Fuel cents/mi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011 Nissan LEAF                   40,600      8836        4 mi/kWh       0         $265           3.0
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid           114,087      8144       48 mi/gal     170         $424           5.2
2002 Ford E350                     72,678      1828       13 mi/gal     141         $353          19.2
1998 Plymouth Grand Voyager       102,187         0       22 mi/gal       0           $0          11.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fleet:                            329,552    18,808                     311        $1042           5.5  

Assumptions:
- Electricity costs $0.12 per kWh
- Gasoline costs $2.50 per gallon
- Minivan and maxivan are parked right now, but they are still alive
A couple of interesting observations when comparing the recent results with 17 months ago:

- Total annual miles driven has increased by about 5700 mi/year or 43%. LEAF increased by 26%. Honda increased by 85%. Ford increased by 8%.
- The mileage on the Ford E350 was due to a single long trip. Currently, that vehicles is parked.
- Our annual overall fuel expense for the year has dropped by about $275. (Most of that is due to the above-mentioned trip in the E350.)
- Our overall fuel expense per mile DECREASED from 5.8c/mile to 5.4c/mile.
- We put significantly more miles on the Honda, mainly because we used it to shuttle a student that started last fall back and forth from college. The Honda has been a great car and turns 15 years old next month. The efficiency is still quite high with the current tank registering 56 MPG. (And the tires have over 75,000 miles on them and they are still in great shape! I expect to get over 100,000 miles on this set of Michelins.)

The E350 is not driven much anymore, so the gasoline usage and expense should drop next time I report it.
 
Since I got the Leaf, the ICE car stays pretty much unused in the driveway until I have a longer trip that day. That is not that often. Also, we, the family of 5 use the minivan more to go out together, which also gives the best use of the van, due to greater gas consumption.

Now that I think of it, getting the Leaf (and using it every day) is like when a person wears only shoes, and then buys sneakers... You then end up using the sneakers everyday, and the shoes don't wear out as fast, and are only used on special occasions.... LOL
 
We are a LEAF and Prius family. The LEAF is used for all the local commuting and the Prius for my 90 mile round trip to work. Both are excellent cars and serve their different functions very well, but both of us enjoy driving the LEAF more. I really cannot make up my mind whether I"ll replace the Prius with a Prius Prime or a Tesla 3. My ever so practical wife votes Prius Prime for a couple of reasons:
  • Known to be reliable, and I am familiar with the car
    Cheaper to buy, cheaper to insure. Much cheaper to repair
    No Tesla mechanics within 250 miles
Environmentally, the Prime is a much better choice than the Tesla because I live in coal country.

So that should do it ... but I'm still waffling for two reasons:

  • EV driving is just more pleasant, and the Tesla is the safest car on the road for my use case.
    I want to support Tesla in general, and particularly during this age of trumpism
 
Environmentally, the Prime is a much better choice than the Tesla because I live in coal country.
Click to expand...

It's probably more like a wash. Even coal-powered (via the grid) EVs are cleaner to run than typical ICEs. The Prime gets better fuel economy than the regular Prius, but that's because it uses electricity. OTOH, with money saved by getting the Prime, you could get rooftop solar...
 
LeftieBiker said:
Environmentally, the Prime is a much better choice than the Tesla because I live in coal country.
Click to expand...

It's probably more like a wash. Even coal-powered (via the grid) EVs are cleaner to run than typical ICEs. The Prime gets better fuel economy than the regular Prius, but that's because it uses electricity. OTOH, with money saved by getting the Prime, you could get rooftop solar...
Click to expand...
My solar panels arrived yesterday (Yay!!) and are going up next week. They are also besides the point.

Pollution comes in a couple of flavors:
Nox: Coal emissions are vastly higher than Prime tailpipe
Sox: Coal emissions are vastly higher than Prime tailpipe
CO2:
  • Well to Wheel for shale petroleum is about 25 pounds per gallon, so about 0.45 lbs per mile for the Prime in HV mode at 55 MPG.
    Coal is about 2.2 lbs per kWh generated. 7% of energy is wasted in transmission and about 15% wasted from the wall to the battery. Presuming the Tesla 3 on-road efficiency is 4 miles per kWh, this works out to 2.2 / (4*0.93*0.85) = 0.7 pounds per mile.
 
Phatcat73 said:
Why consider the Prius prime vs the volt?
Click to expand...
Not sure about SageBrush but personally when I compared our older('07) Prius to the older Volt, there was hardly a comparison, the Prius won hands down. The Volt was VERY cramped, virtually no storage room and passenger compartment had that "cockpit" feel that either you love or hate, I hate having no room and "stuff" everywhere I turned. I also disliked how once the battery ran out the Volt would only be MPG in the low 40s(or upper 30s for older ones) compared to the Prius in the 50s.
To me the Volt has a specific use, first and foremost someone who can stand it's design/space and second someone who drives mostly within it's EV range or not much more. When it comes to long trips(300 miles +) you just can't beat a Prius, storage space is also quite nice, at least the older Prius's, I haven't seen the Prime yet in in person although from pictures it's quite ugly. I don't care how they made it only a 4 passenger, like the old Volt and truthfully I haven't sat in a newer Volt either. I'm planning on trying both at my local auto show this month, hopefully they'll have both along with the Bolt, which I also don't have a whole lot of hope for(tight hard seats) but I'll give it a sit I also hope they have a Hyundai Ioniq to sit in, lots of things to try if they only have them off the turntable and on the floor to check out.....Also hope they have a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV to sit in, I'll probably pass by the Mitsubishi area although they'll probably give me the same crap they did last year about the PHEV Outlander......we should know more shortly......more like any year :roll:
 
Phatcat73 said:
Why consider the Prius prime vs the volt?
Click to expand...

Or the upcoming Hyundai IONIQ, the first car to come in no less than three flavors (regular hybrid, plug-in hybrid, full electric). Its styling is also less polarizing than that of the current Prius.
 
Why not a Volt ?
The car: No advantage over a Prime for my use case of 90 mile trips and longer in terms of petroleum use; higher tailpipe emissions; worse reliability than a Prius PiP or hybrid. No props for being a Prius copy. More expensive.
The dealership: I expect ALL GM dealerships to suck, while Toyota is hit or miss but likely to have reasonably hybrid expertise by now. In the 12 years I have owned Toyota hybrids, I have ONE visit to a dealership and it probably was not needed.
The company: I despise GM, and respect Toyota. Not like my love affair with Tesla, but Toyota is a fine company with outstanding, actually unbelievable customer support and more than a wave towards environmentalism in their production life-cycle.

Final score: for all the things I care about, the Volt gets a zero compared to the Prime.

Why not a Hyundai ?
If it is not a Tesla, I don't buy cars without a good track record.
 
SageBrush said:
Why not a Hyundai ?
If it is not a Tesla, I don't buy cars without a good track record.
Click to expand...

Hyundai and Kia have had a very good track record as of lately. It's almost like they're not the same company of 20 years ago...or even 10 years ago.

Quality-wise, I think they're above Nissan. Reliability-wise certainly better than Tesla.
 
RonDawg said:
SageBrush said:
Quality-wise, I think they're above Nissan. Reliability-wise certainly better than Tesla.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I suspect you are right wrt to Nissan. This forum gives a strong whiff of bad Nissan customer support, in the sense of first blowing the customer off and only coming around to a sensible support after it is clear the customer is not going away. I'm thinking mostly of the new 30 kWh battery cars that have single cell manufacturing defects in the battery. The retarded annual 'battery checks' Nissan recommends at the dealership also give the flavor of a company who places the customer last.

As for Tesla, that is a complicated question.
Reliability in my world is as much a question of what breaks as it is how the company deals with the matter. It is really, really rare for a Tesla to strand a driver, and their service center support is out-of-this-world great. They have replaced motors because of noise. The Tesla specific problems relate to access: high density Tesla areas have long wait times, while I live ~ 300 miles from the closest service center. Tesla is planning to expand their 'ranger' program (service person comes to you) to off-load some of the center work and hopefully solve access problems for people like me.

In any case, I didn't mean to imply that Tesla cars are bullet proof from day #1; I meant that I will tolerate quality and reliability problems in a Tesla to support the company that I won't from another manufacturer.
 
Yep, we also have a compact CUV and it gets used at least monthly when we need two cars or more space than the Volt has, but not nearly as often as when we had the Leaf...
 

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