'16 30 kWh pack - backwards compatibility and warranty?

My 2015 almost always shows more on the GOM then what the battery percentage is. And at full 100% charge is very rarely below 100 miles. Usually it is between 103-107, on rare occasion as high as 115 and never lower then 95. It only even shows less then 100 when my wife decided to drive home at 75mph on the freeway with the AC on.

I know that the GOM is no measure of anything substantial, but the 2015 packs are definitely an improvement.

If I recall, the pack itself is made up of a number of modules, each with 2? cells in the module. So if the cells themselves are getting smaller, or just have more capacity at the same size, there's a chance that our 2015 packs have some modules that don't have any cells in them, perhaps they are just filling space? The 30kwh pack just needs to fill those empty modules.

tkdbrusco said:

If I recall, the pack itself is made up of a number of modules, each with 2? cells in the module. So if the cells themselves are getting smaller, or just have more capacity at the same size, there's a chance that our 2015 packs have some modules that don't have any cells in them, perhaps they are just filling space? The 30kwh pack just needs to fill those empty modules.

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With the older LEAFs, each can holds four large pouch-style cells, arranged with two parallel and two series. 48 cans, with 96 cell-pairs, 192 total. 96 x 4.1 volts = 393.6 volts for the pack.

There is a possibility this has changed a bit with the 2015 "lizard" battery. Has anyone seen the shop manual for the 2015 LEAF? I doubt that the 2015 battery has empty spaces that can be used for a 30 kWh battery. My guess is that the 2016 battery cans and cells will be more compact or that it will have a different arrangement of cells and cans, but in the same overall space.

For reference, my picture of the 2011 LEAF battery pack:

nerys said:

Give me 150 mile range and i wont need to even think of tms savings. They would cease to be relevant even with degredation over time.

With a solid 150m i would have a solid 75m range at 0 degrees with heat 100,000 miles down th3 road.

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Well, maybe, although probably not at established LEAF degradation rates. 70% of 150 is 105 miles, and that's before any allowance for temp, heat, wet roads, reserve, hills, winds etc. You can probably knock another 20% off for temperature at 0 deg., getting you down to 84. Then add heat and the other factors, and you're pushing it. If the battery only degrades to 80% after 100k miles, which may be reasonable if the new chemistry holds up, you should be okay.

Se pa here. At least from leaf spy data in 18000 miles i have shown 0 furthered measured degredation. I am thinking these batteries like being used and i sure use the heck out of it.

My range under my driving conditions at 0'f with heat is about 45-50 miles battery at 89% (11% loss from po)

I inly need the tiniest bit more to have a comfy rt at 0' for my 54m ride.

For my delivery job range is not the issue. The slow 3.3kwh charger is the issue.

30kw with 6.6kwh charger would pretty end any issues i have.

I wonder if 2016 will see the continuation of the 6.0 Kw charger or will it become a real 6.6 Kw charger...

nerys said:

30kw with 6.6kwh (input) charger would pretty end any issues i have.

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MODERATORS NOTE:

All Charging Speed Discussion moved here: Faster L2 charging should be standard

All others: Keep it civil, please. Lots of snippy posts have been moved along with some posts that simply got mixed in.

Hi All,
I need to go in for a warranty battery replacement on my 2011 Leaf (8 bars, 52,000 miles right now). Since it's been a while since anyone posted, can anyone tell me if there's any more info on whether a 30kwh pack will be offered for a 2011? I'd gladly pay extra for it.

Thanks!

No, the 30kWh pack isn't backwards compatible.

It is the exact same casing. What is the reason given for no backwards comparibility?

Since we don't know the structure of the 30kwh battery, we do not know it interacts with charging and control systems of earlier Leafs. It is not the same as building a larger gas tank. Complete install could require changes to hard wired components.

mjblazin said:

Since we don't know the structure of the 30kwh battery, we do not know it interacts with charging and control systems of earlier Leafs. It is not the same as building a larger gas tank. Complete install could require changes to hard wired components.

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+1

Now if some one got their hands on one and mapped out the I/O system one may be able to make a go between board able to make them compatible!

That does not make any sense. A battery is just like a gas tank as long as you dont change the voltage specs

The worst that should happen isnthe car simply reads the battery as "full" longer and it drains slower simlly reporting the wrong moleafe remaining.

The bms wont give a whoot it stops based on voltage not kwh stored. Voltage full is voltage full whether it is 10kwh or 100kwh the voltage is the same at full.

There is no reason it shod not work unless it is physically larger/different and we have reports it is the exact same shell or if yhe chem is difference needed a new or reprogrammed bms if compatible.

Has nissan said no backwards comp? If yes where?

They did confirm verbally when asked the 30kWh pack is incompatible with the 24kWh equipped Leafs, no specific reason was given. This information was in the comments section of the most recent 2016 Leaf article on ievs or gcr, can't find it now.

My expectation is that the 30kWh is kinda compatible in the bush mechanic way, but not compatible in the corporate recall risk adverse way.

It'll probably fit and work in a '13-'15 model year LEAF, but the dash reading will be similar to the effect of the using 3rd party battery pack to extend the LEAF range.

I also suspect the voltages are a slightly different, the change in chemistry is likely to be be a a slightly lower voltage chemistry, if the new pack have a cut off voltage below current cut off voltages then perhaps the 30kWh might lose 5%-10% of useable capacity, so why bother.

Sooner or later, someone will total a new 30kWh LEAF, and the pack will be physically placed into an older LEAF. Then we will know for sure.

What a shame- if they had figured out how to do it, they could have made a bunch of people very happy, I imagine.

tgrich said:

What a shame- if they had figured out how to do it, they could have made a bunch of people very happy, I imagine.

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And taken away a lot of the incentive to buy a new Leaf. They would rather sell new cars, than parts...

Firetruck41 said:

tgrich said:

What a shame- if they had figured out how to do it, they could have made a bunch of people very happy, I imagine.

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And taken away a lot of the incentive to buy a new Leaf. They would rather sell new cars, than parts...

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are you joking? Car companies love love love selling parts, the markup is much greater than selling a new vehicle.

what they don't like doing is taking on risk for themselves, if an earlier model has not been validated, yada yada yada for a newer component, then its real expensive to them, even if it has zero benefit overwise.

Tesla claims it is making no profit on a $29k 70kWh battery for the Roadster, that involves reuse of the old case etc.
would LEAF owners appreciate a new 30kWh cell placed into their old packs for only 30/70 *29k. thats only $12.5k, to get the same price per kWh as Tesla gives.


for the same $12.5k they could simply upgrade to new model, without the validation risks/costs.

Valdemar said:

They did confirm verbally when asked the 30kWh pack is incompatible with the 24kWh equipped Leafs, no specific reason was given. This information was in the comments section of the most recent 2016 Leaf article on ievs or gcr, can't find it now.

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=436427#p436427

ydnas7 said:

My expectation is that the 30kWh is kinda compatible in the bush mechanic way, but not compatible in the corporate recall risk adverse way.

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With a testing cycle, perhaps a few firmware updates, it might become compatible in the corporate recall risk adverse way. But I wouldn't expect that for several years at least.

Think about volumes. There will be tens of thousands of new Leafs sold. There might be a hundred people this year that: need a new battery pack, are not under warrantee and are willing to pay somewhat more for 30kWh. I'd guess less.

The number of potential sales of replacement batteries grows with the number of older Leafs on the road, as they both go out of warrantee and lose capacity. Eventually the potential profit = volume * gross margin will exceed cost of testing + development of firmware updates.

ydnas7 said:

Firetruck41 said:

tgrich said:

What a shame- if they had figured out how to do it, they could have made a bunch of people very happy, I imagine.

Click to expand...

And taken away a lot of the incentive to buy a new Leaf. They would rather sell new cars, than parts...

Click to expand...

are you joking? Car companies love love love selling parts, the markup is much greater than selling a new vehicle.

what they don't like doing is taking on risk for themselves, if an earlier model has not been validated, yada yada yada for a newer component, then its real expensive to them, even if it has zero benefit overwise.

Tesla claims it is making no profit on a $29k 70kWh battery for the Roadster, that involves reuse of the old case etc.
would LEAF owners appreciate a new 30kWh cell placed into their old packs for only 30/70 *29k. thats only $12.5k, to get the same price per kWh as Tesla gives.


for the same $12.5k they could simply upgrade to new model, without the validation risks/costs.

Click to expand...

In the roadster case Tesla is hand packing the cells one or two packs a week. In the Nissan case the packs are made on an assembly line en mass thousands at a time.

It's not the cells that cost so much. There is also the hand labor with engineering, validation and testing for a low volume product.

I don't pretend to know Nissans costs to make a 30 kWh pack but I don't think bringing up the roadster pack upgrades are a fair metric for comparison.