Are LEAF concerns evidence of anxiety?

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edatoakrun

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
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Shasta County, North California
With the proliferation of threads and off-topic comments on unrelated threads which seem to indicate many MNL members may be allowing their underlying anxieties distort their LEAF experiences, I thought it might be a good idea to begin a therapeutic thread.

The excerpted article below suggests pre-existing conditions, specifically two anxieties, are barriers to BEV sales:

Psychological Barriers Are Holding Back Electric Vehicle Adoption

January 29th, 2015 by Joshua S Hill

A new study investigating the barriers preventing people from buying electric vehicles has identified two separate issues that hold people back — range anxiety and resale anxiety...

The study, published in the “Articles in Advance” section of Manufacturing and Service Operations Management (M&SOM)...

The authors of the report — Michael K. Lim of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Ho-Yin Mak of Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, and Ying Rong of Shanghai Jiao Tong University — identified two specific psychological barriers that prevent people from purchasing electric vehicles:
range anxiety — the concern that an electric vehicle’s driving range will not be enough for the needs of the driver (however, at least one writer has intelligently noted that “range anxiety anxiety” seems to be the real issue)
resale anxiety — the concern that the price of used electric vehicles will drop in the future, making resale a difficult option...
https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/29/psychological-barriers-holding-back-electric-vehicle-adoption/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't help noticing that many with LEAFs still have these anxieties, and that those fears are increasingly entering discussions, even on MNL threads on topics unrelated to either issue:

Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19017&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am far from being anxiety-free (in general) and admit I had both those anxieties to some extent before the last 44+ months and 33k+ miles of experience with my LEAF has proven these anxieties largely without foundation.

Even with my range slightly reduced as compared with new, and with January temperatures (abnormally warm-or perhaps the new normal of anthropogenic global warming?) My LEAF made eight trips last month of 50-60 miles, at ~30-45 mph speeds, including ~2000 ft. descent and ascent each, starting from "80%", and returning well before VLBW, requiring only ~60-65% of my total present available capacity.

I also made two range/capacity test trips last month of over ~90 and ~94 miles at ~25-45 mph speeds with over 5,500 ft total ascent and descent (if not hyper-mileing, close to it) using the capacity allowed between "100%" and ~VLBW, or ~88% of my total present available capacity.

So I have every reason to expect my current LEAF, with its OE battery pack, will meet my minimum requirements for at least a few more years, and ~five or six more if I'm lucky (and even if no opportunities to upgrade become available) and so I have a lot less "range anxiety anxiety" than I had four years ago, before delivery.

Unexpected (by me, at least) large reductions in both gasoline (by ~half) and New BEV prices have reduced the resale value of my LEAF to about the worst case I anticipated ~four years ago, but my own TCO since delivery is still no higher than for any comparable ICEV, and lower than most.

Since I doubt the price of gas will fall anywhere near as fast in the future, nor will BEV prices (net-incentives) I have far less anxiety about future depreciation expenses.

So, can anyone suggest any rational reason why I should still have either of these anxieties?

Can anyone offer rational explanation, for why so many MNL members seem to be so anxious, on both counts?
 
edatoakrun said:
...Can anyone offer rational explanation, for why so many MNL members seem to be so anxious, on both counts?
There is a sigificant variation in attitudes and opinions on just about anything.
What you are calling anxious, many others consider to be realism.

Just like many disagreed with a large % of what you said about capacity degradation.

But I am surprised with the number of people with a new 2015 that are so carefully tracking battery data and worrying about capacity declines.

There is just too much inaccuracy in the measurements and noise in the information to be that anxious about data on a 2015.
 
people are just afraid of change in general. I've had people tell me that cars should have an engine. Period. End of discussion. They don't want to talk about it any more! That's the way it always was they say.
 
a very wide range of experiences lends to just a wide a range of expectations, needs and results. I have to think this is not unexpected. Really is normal I think.

The issue is we want to put the LEAF in the "perfect fit for all our needs" category because that is how we look at our cars. For special needs; we have another car or truck or whatever. So to have a car that only fits 90% or 99.9% of our needs is very much an alien concept.

To address that unfulfilled need, we much explore uncharted territory like renting, borrowing or simply buying a car that will be designed to sit 95% of the time.

Now how we rationalize whatever choice we have taken above is just as varied and many as the reasons, environments and the transportation needs out there. The big thing is what works for you. It won't be the same as what works for me. I can tell you why it works but then I get too many people who think I am compromising based on their level of acceptance.

well, you might be luckier, richer or simply more together than me but my life is filled with constantly weighing my options. IOW, my ENTIRE life is a compromise. It is always balancing needs, wants, and family into what I can accept.

This LEAF is no different and to be quite honest with ya; has become one of the lesser challenges when weighed with the benefits I have to face
 
The Battery Aging Model predicts my capacity will fall to a level in about 2.5 years such that it won't meet my driving needs... and I am currently running about 0.5% worse than than the Battery Aging Model. Thus I will get 6 years and 60,000 miles out of my Leaf, far from what Nissan promised. Anxious, no. Annoyed, yes.
 
As a leasee, valuation drop causes me no anxiety, in fact, NMAC offering $5k off buyouts at lease end and the prospect of cheap used LEAFs counters anxiety very well.

Range anxiety, after more than two years, and having switched to a '15, no longer exists. Range understanding has become second nature.

But it's perfectly natural for someone who's never driven a BEV to worry about range and value. They only have experience with ICE, and there's a learning curve. A lot of ICE drivers don't associate driving with thinking, it's totally second nature for them, they just get in and go, fuel is everywhere, anxiety is mostly from mechanical problems.
 
johnrhansen said:
people are just afraid of change in general.

This. Most of those with a doubt of the capability of an electric car always come up with "But what if I have to suddenly take a 150 mile trip?" I then ask, "And how often does that happen?"

For many people, private automobile ownership does represent the ability to do things at a whim, and (with the current state of EV technology and infrastructure) an EV does pose a major challenge to that. Even a Tesla with the biggest battery does require some planning, which is something you don't really have to do with an ICEV beyond carrying enough money/credit to pay for your fuel.

DaveinOlyWA said:
The issue is we want to put the LEAF in the "perfect fit for all our needs" category because that is how we look at our cars. For special needs; we have another car or truck or whatever. So to have a car that only fits 90% or 99.9% of our needs is very much an alien concept.

To address that unfulfilled need, we much explore uncharted territory like renting, borrowing or simply buying a car that will be designed to sit 95% of the time.

The majority of us own/lease cars that are far more than what we need for the majority of the time. I can count on one hand how often the back seat of my Leaf got used; I could have easily made do with a Smart ED as a daily driver had those been available in the US when I got my Leaf. But most people won't buy a two seater unless it's a fun car like a Miata or Porsche. Never mind all the large SUVs out there that are more often than not carrying just one person.

It's like people who justify owning a full size pickup because they "need it when they go to the home center." But if you really look at how often they need to transport an item that won't fit in anything smaller, for example a 4x8 sheet of plywood/drywall, or a major appliance, that happens only a handful of times a year. Home Depot and Lowes now offer hourly truck rental service, and there's still UHaul and other conventional vehicle rental sources. But going back to the spontaneity that I mentioned above, people think it's a "hassle" to go through that trouble, preferring instead to put up with the abominable fuel economy, the difficulty in parking, and the clumsy handling the remaining 300+ days of the year instead.
 
RonDawg said:
johnrhansen said:
people are just afraid of change in general.

This. Most of those with a doubt of the capability of an electric car always come up with "But what if I have to suddenly take a 150 mile trip?" I then ask, "And how often does that happen?"
When it comes to an emotional state, 'how often' isn't relevant. I didn't expect my dad's triple bypass a few years back or my 3000 miles in driving back and forth between Texas and Florida. The situation was stressful enough without having to figure out where I was going to get a car when I needed it.

The auto industry has been selling 'convenience' and 'freedom' for a very long time - and there's plenty of 'mental inertia' in Joe Public's thought and emotion systems. We're willing to turn the heat down to get a bit more range, or accept owning a 'local' vehicle that can get us to the local car rental when necessary, but most Americans aren't 'there' yet, and might not be for another 20-30 years.
 
Had ours been a single-vehicle household the decision to get an EV would have taken a lot more thought. Likewise if we lived in an apartment.

EVs are not for everyone at this point. Then again my situation is far from unique! There are millions of buyers who could be just as happy with an EV as I am. This will continue to drive the first wave.

And as the rolling fleet becomes larger, various market and political forces will conspire to improve the vehicles and infrastructure in a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

There's no point in worrying about the current state of EVs. They've already gone past the tipping point.
 
The only car with an EV Mode that would make sense for apartment dwellers with no charging at work or nearby would be the Prius PHEV. That gets higher MPG than the regular Prius when not charged, so the only penalty for not charging it is little or no EV mode available until you find a public charging station.
 
LeftieBiker said:
... the Prius PHEV. That gets higher MPG than the regular Prius when not charged

Is that true? I thought the PiP (Plug-In Prius) got slightly lower MPG than the regular Prius if you never charged it.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
LeftieBiker said:
... the Prius PHEV. That gets higher MPG than the regular Prius when not charged

Is that true? I thought the PiP (Plug-In Prius) got slightly lower MPG than the regular Prius if you never charged it.

The larger pack and faster-charging-from-regen lithium chemistry let it run in electric mode more than the regular Prius. People tend to average about 50 MPG with the non-PIP and 55-60 with the PIP with no charge.
 
Nubo said:
EVs are not for everyone at this point.

That can be said for many vehicles. The Porsche Boxster is not good as a solo car for a family. Neither is a 1 ton crew cab dually pickup for those who don't have the room to park it or the wallet to feed its thirst. A car with very little headroom is not going to be for six-and-a-half foot tall people.

EVs do work for a lot more people than are willing to adopt one, especially if this will not be their solo car. But as mentioned earlier, change is scary for a lot of people, and the fact that you cannot be as spontaneous as you can with an ICE also is off-putting to many.
 
In my case, I'd find it much less hassle if I could just charge my Leaf to 100% whenever needed, instead of worrying about starting charging from a high SOC, or leaving it at 100%. The car is sitting at 87% now (in frigid Upstate NY) but I have a medical appointment tomorrow that I could manage to drive to, but only if I had 100%, and preheated..
 
LeftieBiker said:
In my case, I'd find it much less hassle if I could just charge my Leaf to 100% whenever needed, instead of worrying about starting charging from a high SOC, or leaving it at 100%. The car is sitting at 87% now (in frigid Upstate NY) but I have a medical appointment tomorrow that I could manage to drive to, but only if I had 100%, and preheated..

Until an EV becomes a pretty thoughtless thing, they won't really be mass market. Any vehicle which requires that you plan things out before you start because it is nigh impossible to make on-the-fly changes is a specialty vehicle, and not a general use one. Before gas stations were common, ICE cars would have qualified. Horses were better transportation for most people.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The car is sitting at 87% now (in frigid Upstate NY) but I have a medical appointment tomorrow that I could manage to drive to, but only if I had 100%, and preheated..
Alternatively, if your DR's office had L2 charging in the parking lot, that would also make things a lot easier, especially with 6 kW L2 charging. In one hour, you could pick up 25 miles of range and even hit the pre-heat button 5 minutes before you walk out to warm up the car off grid power before you head home.
 
bigrob90 said:
LeftieBiker said:
In my case, I'd find it much less hassle if I could just charge my Leaf to 100% whenever needed, instead of worrying about starting charging from a high SOC, or leaving it at 100%. The car is sitting at 87% now (in frigid Upstate NY) but I have a medical appointment tomorrow that I could manage to drive to, but only if I had 100%, and preheated..

Until an EV becomes a pretty thoughtless thing, they won't really be mass market. Any vehicle which requires that you plan things out before you start because it is nigh impossible to make on-the-fly changes is a specialty vehicle, and not a general use one. Before gas stations were common, ICE cars would have qualified. Horses were better transportation for most people.
Also, people don't realize how much energy the ICE vehicle carries around vs. how much it waste to actually drive. Imagine if a Leaf had a 1,000 kWH battery pack and to drive it 100 miles, you wasted 950 kWH of energy out the back as heat. But it was easy to recharge this massive battery in under 5 minutes (bare with me on the power requirements to do that :) )

Driving around the ICE vehicle is just like driving around that power wasteful Leaf but it's so convenient to fill up and gas stations are everywhere. The Leaf makes you think more about efficiency which is alien to ICE drivers, even those driving high MPG vehicles because it's the mentality of "just keep adding fuel" rather than "make the most with what you have". The fact that Leaf with an average power usage of a tank-less hot water heater can zoom a full vehicle around even with the range limitations makes one really appreciate how much energy is actually wasted by ICE vehicles and the cost the drivers incur to enjoy this feature.
 
edatoakrun said:
I also made two range/capacity test trips last month of over ~90 and ~94 miles at ~25-45 mph speeds with over 5,500 ft total ascent and descent (if not hyper-mileing, close to it) using the capacity allowed between "100%" and ~VLBW, or ~88% of my total present available capacity.

I don't know how you can stand to spend 3 hours driving 90 miles. It would just drive me nuts. Your ability to withstand this low speed driving is what separates you from most everyone else on this forum. You don't seem to have a problem with range, but you also drive half the speed of most other leaf drivers.

I don't mean to sound as if I'm trying to put you down or insulting you, but just an observation. You have long held the belief that range and degradation are not an issue, but I think that your driving style is beneficial to both, and not many other owners share that style. It would be great if we could all have that type of patients.
 
knightmb said:
bigrob90 said:
LeftieBiker said:
In my case, I'd find it much less hassle if I could just charge my Leaf to 100% whenever needed, instead of worrying about starting charging from a high SOC, or leaving it at 100%. The car is sitting at 87% now (in frigid Upstate NY) but I have a medical appointment tomorrow that I could manage to drive to, but only if I had 100%, and preheated..

Until an EV becomes a pretty thoughtless thing, they won't really be mass market. Any vehicle which requires that you plan things out before you start because it is nigh impossible to make on-the-fly changes is a specialty vehicle, and not a general use one. Before gas stations were common, ICE cars would have qualified. Horses were better transportation for most people.
Also, people don't realize how much energy the ICE vehicle carries around vs. how much it waste to actually drive. Imagine if a Leaf had a 1,000 kWH battery pack and to drive it 100 miles, you wasted 950 kWH of energy out the back as heat. But it was easy to recharge this massive battery in under 5 minutes (bare with me on the power requirements to do that :) )

Driving around the ICE vehicle is just like driving around that power wasteful Leaf but it's so convenient to fill up and gas stations are everywhere. The Leaf makes you think more about efficiency which is alien to ICE drivers, even those driving high MPG vehicles because it's the mentality of "just keep adding fuel" rather than "make the most with what you have". The fact that Leaf with an average power usage of a tank-less hot water heater can zoom a full vehicle around even with the range limitations makes one really appreciate how much energy is actually wasted by ICE vehicles and the cost the drivers incur to enjoy this feature.

Cars are tools. Tools to go to work, tools to go to play, for most people. They don't buy them to remind them to be efficient. That's a very luxurious attitude which the majority of the population cannot afford.
 
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