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kikngas said:
The 2015 S has the real-time indication of miles per kWh, which I believe is the "energy meter" provided when there is no nav installed. But it pegs at 8 with any coasting or regen, thus making it difficult to confirm until you also check the bubbles, and you have to watch it all of the time to try and use throttle to achieve a good neutral. And the gauge jumping about seems to show how badly I am doing with the throttle :cry:
The energy meter on the SV/SL is vastly superior to crude energy efficiency bar on the dash. It displays a pie chart that shows kW used or generated in real time. It is easy to use that display to keep the LEAF at zero kW (the equivalent of neutral). Another graph in the display shows the real time power used by the climate control system, which is also very useful to track.

My LeafDD also displays real time power information via a bar graph, so that's the one I watch now because it is always on and I put it in a convenient location. If one of those ever comes up for sale you might want to grab it.
 
dgpcolorado said:
The energy meter on the SV/SL is vastly superior to crude energy efficiency bar on the dash. It displays a pie chart that shows kW used or generated in real time. It is easy to use that display to keep the LEAF at zero kW (the equivalent of neutral). Another graph in the display shows the real time power used by the climate control system, which is also very useful to track.

Ah, so that's why I've not found the indication of power used by CC.

On the brake lights, I've done my share of engine braking down hills as well. But it's much easier to just tap the brakes enough to flip on the lights when your other use of the energy is to burn gas to slow down :lol: In fact I would always pump the brakes both so they can cool a bit in between, and to catch the eye of those behind me more than once and get them thinking about the stoplight at the bottom of the hill or etc. ...which they oftentimes seem to do, but there's always that one that darts into the right turn lane and floors it to get to the stop sooner. Or better, use the right turn only lane to pass those turning left that have stopped the lane that goes straight or turns left. That makes a very safe environment for the oncoming that is trying to turn left and can't see the right turn lane coming straight for 'em.
 
kikngas said:
Ah, so that's why I've not found the indication of power used by CC.

On the brake lights, I've done my share of engine braking down hills as well. But it's much easier to just tap the brakes enough to flip on the lights when your other use of the energy is to burn gas to slow down :lol: In fact I would always pump the brakes both so they can cool a bit in between, and to catch the eye of those behind me more than once and get them thinking about the stoplight at the bottom of the hill or etc. ...which they oftentimes seem to do, but there's always that one that darts into the right turn lane and floors it to get to the stop sooner. Or better, use the right turn only lane to pass those turning left that have stopped the lane that goes straight or turns left. That makes a very safe environment for the oncoming that is trying to turn left and can't see the right turn lane coming straight for 'em.
When driving mountains in Colorado, using engine compression to control speed on downgrades is something of a safety issue, especially for heavy trucks. Since the engine is at idle fuel levels, the gas used is trivial. Even automatic transmissions should be using lower gears. Riding the brakes for many miles down a steep grade isn't a good practice. Since most mountain roads have a lot of curves, just going down at terminal velocity isn't usually an option, even if it was legal. Many downgrades here have emergency truck ramps for use by out-of-control trucks (but it would be a mighty scary ride until the truck came to one of those).

The lack of enough regen to descend hills without using the friction brakes, is one of my pet peeves about the LEAF.
 
dgpcolorado said:
Even automatic transmissions should be using lower gears. Riding the brakes for many miles down a steep grade isn't a good practice. Since most mountain roads have a lot of curves, just going down at terminal velocity isn't usually an option, even if it was legal.

The 2007 Altima CVT does a pretty good job of selecting a lower gear when gathering speed downhill with zero acceleration input. My wife sometimes asks why the engine is revving so hard down a hill. I always shudder when I hear people talking about 'pumping brakes'; glad I don't have to ride along.

As you say, shame the LEAF can't increase regen to hold the speed for long downhills.
 
dgpcolorado said:
The lack of enough regen to descend hills without using the friction brakes, is one of my pet peeves about the LEAF.

Yes, your mountains require rather different driving style then "my" hills.

"B" mode gives more regen for each bubble shown. So perhaps they were listening to you.

From what I've observed (and I'm sure you have considered), can only suggest that if you traverse the entire hill at a lower speed, the regen seems proportionately stronger. So descent at 50 may be missing out on some regen, but 30 might capture all of it. As I say, I'm sure you know that, and that the conditions do not allow it. More just posting the idea for the next reader that might be able to minimize speed at the crest.

For my up and down hills (not mountains) I am pretty much able to coast down, and store the energy in the speed gain, then try to go up the next with just 2 or 3 bubbles of power, which results in a gradual speed reduction, thus preparing for the next crest.
 
Yes, my reference to pumping brakes was on Minnesota hills, not Colorado mountains. In CO you have to be more concerned about burning up brakes then about flashing the brake lights to help ensure others see the stop light ahead.
 
dgpcolorado said:
kikngas said:
Ah, so that's why I've not found the indication of power used by CC.

On the brake lights, I've done my share of engine braking down hills as well. But it's much easier to just tap the brakes enough to flip on the lights when your other use of the energy is to burn gas to slow down :lol: In fact I would always pump the brakes both so they can cool a bit in between, and to catch the eye of those behind me more than once and get them thinking about the stoplight at the bottom of the hill or etc. ...which they oftentimes seem to do, but there's always that one that darts into the right turn lane and floors it to get to the stop sooner. Or better, use the right turn only lane to pass those turning left that have stopped the lane that goes straight or turns left. That makes a very safe environment for the oncoming that is trying to turn left and can't see the right turn lane coming straight for 'em.
When driving mountains in Colorado, using engine compression to control speed on downgrades is something of a safety issue, especially for heavy trucks. Since the engine is at idle fuel levels, the gas used is trivial. Even automatic transmissions should be using lower gears. Riding the brakes for many miles down a steep grade isn't a good practice. Since most mountain roads have a lot of curves, just going down at terminal velocity isn't usually an option, even if it was legal. Many downgrades here have emergency truck ramps for use by out-of-control trucks (but it would be a mighty scary ride until the truck came to one of those).
Same situation applies here, for instance on I-80 from west of Tahoe descending towards Sacramento. There are signs on the steepest grades (I forget the slopes, but there are sections at least 6%, but they might be 8 or 10%) which read

Truckers

Let 'er drift

Let 'em cool

with runaway ramps spaced appropriately. The steepest slope I've seen signs on was Hwy 108 just east of Sonora Pass, which is either 25 or 26% and very narrow and windy (several hairpin curves), but that's much too narrow for trucks. Old Priest Grade on the way to/from Yosemite is one I routinely drive, and in the days of drum brakes it was not uncommon to see cars coming back from Yosemite at the bottom that had drifted out into fast moving cross traffic on Hwy 120 (despite using compression braking all the way down I barely stopped short of it a couple of times in my '65 Impala), and the people who lived at the bottom had a hose in their driveway for people to use to put out brake fires - it got plenty of use, and they also had a guest book for people to sign who'd used the hose.

I did have to show my friend how to use the lower gears in his automatic 4Runner when descending this and other steep downhills - apparently many people who've never driven anything other than an automatic are unaware that they can do this.

Sometimes people say "but it's so much cheaper to replace brake pads than a transmission" (this assumes that compression braking is hard on an engine, but it isn't as long as you keep the revs below the red line, using brief brake applications to do so and coasting in between). Some time after I'd gotten my license I raised that point with my dad the truck driver, as to why it made more financial sense to use the brakes. His reply was something along the lines of "If your transmission fails, you signal, pull over to the shoulder, call a tow truck and then repair or replace it. This may cost you a couple thousand. If your brakes fail, you may not be _around_ to have them repaired or replaced for less. How much is your life worth to you?"
 
kikngas said:
..."B" mode gives more regen for each bubble shown. So perhaps they were listening to you.
Others have said that B mode is the equivalent of regen in Eco on 2011/2012 models. I have never seen a 2013 or newer LEAF so I have no way to verify that.
From what I've observed (and I'm sure you have considered), can only suggest that if you traverse the entire hill at a lower speed, the regen seems proportionately stronger. So descent at 50 may be missing out on some regen, but 30 might capture all of it...
There is another annoying quirk of the LEAF regen: it is lower (in kW) at higher speeds than at lower speeds (the opposite of what one would expect). Abasile first reported this several years ago and I see it also. Why would one get fewer kW of regen at 50 mph than at 30 mph? It makes no sense. It makes no difference to the battery how fast one is going. Perhaps this has changed on the newer LEAFs (but with no energy meter you likely wouldn't be able to know for sure; the dots aren't an adequate gauge).
 
Beating the EPA range is not hard if you drive like a hybrid or electric. (this is not a Tesla, so you don't get to drive it like you stole it and get terrific range)

I am consistently getting over 100 per charge (note: I have had an electric before, so I probably opportunity charge waay more than the average Leaf owner). My commute can include some highway, but I chose the lower speed roads (< 50 ) I also drive in B with ECO on.

Can you drive it in D with eco off? Sure. Just don't expect stellar range.
 
dgpcolorado said:
There is another annoying quirk of the LEAF regen: it is lower (in kW) at higher speeds than at lower speeds (the opposite of what one would expect). Abasile first reported this several years ago and I see it also. Why would one get fewer kW of regen at 50 mph than at 30 mph? It makes no sense. It makes no difference to the battery how fast one is going. Perhaps this has changed on the newer LEAFs (but with no energy meter you likely wouldn't be able to know for sure; the dots aren't an adequate gauge).

The effect is worse in winter with a cold battery, I get virtually no regen at highway speeds, but a reasonable amount at slow speeds. Not only is it annoying from a fuel efficiency point of view, but slowing down without braking doesn't occur as you'd expect on the highway and you end up hitting the brakes harder than you'd like. Regen should be consistent regardless of season or speed.
 
JPWhite said:
The effect is worse in winter with a cold battery, I get virtually no regen at highway speeds, but a reasonable amount at slow speeds. Not only is it annoying from a fuel efficiency point of view, but slowing down without braking doesn't occur as you'd expect on the highway and you end up hitting the brakes harder than you'd like. Regen should be consistent regardless of season or speed.
Exactly what I see as well. I hope this is a quirk of the older LEAFs and has been fixed on the newer ones.

Now that my battery is routinely in the 7-9ºC range I see two things: my degradation for the season has finally stopped, and my regen — even at fairly low SOC levels — is largely gone. Regen will get worse as the temperature continues to fall.
 
dgpcolorado said:
JPWhite said:
The effect is worse in winter with a cold battery, I get virtually no regen at highway speeds, but a reasonable amount at slow speeds. Not only is it annoying from a fuel efficiency point of view, but slowing down without braking doesn't occur as you'd expect on the highway and you end up hitting the brakes harder than you'd like. Regen should be consistent regardless of season or speed.
Exactly what I see as well. I hope this is a quirk of the older LEAFs and has been fixed on the newer ones.

Sorry to report that I'm seeing what I'd call the same behavior in my 2015 S. I too think it a bit dangerous to NOT slow me by the normal regen just because this time the battery is colder or I happen to have a full charge. You'd think it could dump the power into the accessory battery or the heater or something. I mean when it is cold and you're showing two regen bubbles available, you'd think if you flip on the heated seat, stirring wheel and defrost, you'd at least get a third bubble. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

I've been wondering why they don't arrange some sort of two stage battery. That way you could get the best properties of both energy storage types. For example, a supercapacitor that can take a very fast charge. Then it could send power to the Li-ion over a period of time as it can accept it. So it could take the quick charge immediately and then work to get the Li-ion warmed up enough to accept the charge. And if you leave it charging longer, then it works like normal. Such an arrangement would generally then have available capacity in the supercapacitor where it could send full regen most all of the time.
 
JPWhite said:
Regen should be consistent regardless of season or speed.
I can understand why battery temperature has an effect on maximum regen level, but speed makes no sense to me. Having regen go away at higher speeds is not intuitive at all.

dgpcolorado said:
I hope this is a quirk of the older LEAFs and has been fixed on the newer ones.
Anyone with a '13+ LEAF see a reduction in maximum regen at higher speeds compared to around 20 mph where it maxes out?

kikngas said:
Sorry to report that I'm seeing what I'd call the same behavior in my 2015 S. I too think it a bit dangerous to NOT slow me by the normal regen just because this time the battery is colder or I happen to have a full charge. You'd think it could dump the power into the accessory battery or the heater or something. I mean when it is cold and you're showing two regen bubbles available, you'd think if you flip on the heated seat, stirring wheel and defrost, you'd at least get a third bubble. But it doesn't seem to work that way.
To be clear - are you seeing a drop in regen at higher speeds (55 mph+) compared to lower speeds (25-35 mph)? There's not much to be done to avoid a reduction in regen at low temperatures unless you artificially limit regen at high temperatures. Cold batteries have higher internal resistance so can't be charged as quickly. Fully charged batteries have no where else for the energy to go. It's too bad Nissan eliminated 80% charging (and I wish they had an adjustable slider like Tesla), as then you could get more regen if you don't need a full charge every day.

The heater might add 5 kW of buffer for additional regen. But unless you're actively using the heater or add a bunch of water onboard to store the heat or an extra radiator to dissipate the heat, that might only help for a couple stops. Not worth the complexity and the cost.

kikngas said:
I've been wondering why they don't arrange some sort of two stage battery.
Easy: Complexity and cost. Nissan needs to reduce the cost of the LEAF further and add more energy dense batteries. Adding expensive high power, low energy density batteries is counter to this goal.
 
drees said:
To be clear - are you seeing a drop in regen at higher speeds (55 mph+) compared to lower speeds (25-35 mph)?

Well, seems to me that as I regen down from 40 that it seems to kick in harder right at around 30MPH. But I'm not positive if that's what you are describing. If I'm going 55MPH, there is a lot of energy there. Grab too hard and you'll quickly have more than the battery can absorb. But grab the same level of kW of regen at 30 and you'll FEEL it slowing you more. So, I've been thinking that we're experiencing the same behavior and describing it a little differently.

Everything else on the throttle is variable. The zero spot to cost varies with speed (which is why it's so much easier to just throw it in neutral). The spot to maintain current speed varies with speed. So, if fully OFF the throttle varies as well, it sorta makes sense. Because at a high speed, (perhaps... I am assuming) the battery cannot accept the charge as fast as regen could deliver it with 4 regen bubbles.

With the S model, I believe I am lacking an indicator that tells me how much regen. I'm actually getting in kW or kWh. I just see the energy meter pegged at 8mi/kWh.

I seems to me that if there are regen bubbles unavailable due to battery temp. that there is clearly a productive place to dump power. That being the fluid that warms the battery. That way at least I might be able to regen more of the NEXT stop sign.

I am still unclear on the battery warming. Does this ONLY run while plugged in? If I'm parked, not charging, on a cold day, am I going to see my SOC drop at the end of a day with sub-zero(F) temps?
 
kikngas said:
That being the fluid that warms the battery. That way at least I might be able to regen more of the NEXT stop sign.

The Lithium-Ion Battery in the LEAF is not liquid cooled/heated. The liquid cooling the LEAF has is for the power electronics.

The LEAF battery is very mildly air cooled. The blanket (where equipped) that can warm the battery only does so in very cold temperatures well below freezing. It's my understanding it will come on at a preset temperature regardless if it is plugged in or not as long as there is a minimum charge for it to draw upon.
 
kikngas said:
Well, seems to me that as I regen down from 40 that it seems to kick in harder right at around 30MPH. But I'm not positive if that's what you are describing. If I'm going 55MPH, there is a lot of energy there. Grab too hard and you'll quickly have more than the battery can absorb. But grab the same level of kW of regen at 30 and you'll FEEL it slowing you more. So, I've been thinking that we're experiencing the same behavior and describing it a little differently.
What drees and I were referring to was an actual reduction in regen power at higher speeds versus lower speeds, which makes no sense at all. For example: being able to regen at 20 kW at 25 mph but only able to get 10 kW of regen at 50 mph. This is a known bug in the 2011/2012 LEAFs. The question is, does it occur in newer LEAFs?
Everything else on the throttle is variable. The zero spot to cost varies with speed (which is why it's so much easier to just throw it in neutral). The spot to maintain current speed varies with speed. So, if fully OFF the throttle varies as well, it sorta makes sense. Because at a high speed, (perhaps... I am assuming) the battery cannot accept the charge as fast as regen could deliver it with 4 regen bubbles.
While it is true that the battery can't accept regen power at certain high charge levels and at lower temperatures, that isn't at all what we are referring to. We are talking about the same power being unavailable at higher speeds versus lower speeds. It makes no sense.

As for the accelerator pedal mapping, yes you can coast at any speed at the same pedal position in Eco (at least on older LEAFs, not sure about the newer ones). In Eco the pedal is mapped at constant power: if you hold the pedal at a constant position you will get constant power, whether 20 kW, 10 kW, zero kW (the equivalent of neutral), or whatever. By contrast, D is mapped completely differently and it is harder to hold a constant speed, never mind zero power, using that mode. D is acceleration mapped and it makes for the "spirited" driving that so many seem to prefer. But it is more difficult to drive efficiently in D. This is the case with older LEAFs, whether or not it has been changed in the newer ones, I couldn't say.
With the S model, I believe I am lacking an indicator that tells me how much regen. I'm actually getting in kW or kWh. I just see the energy meter pegged at 8mi/kWh.
Yes, the S model does not have an energy gauge. The SV/SL models have a gauge on the console that gives power used/regenerated in kW. It is very useful in learning to drive efficiently and it makes it easy to coast at zero power without shifting to neutral.
I seems to me that if there are regen bubbles unavailable due to battery temp. that there is clearly a productive place to dump power. That being the fluid that warms the battery. That way at least I might be able to regen more of the NEXT stop sign.

I am still unclear on the battery warming. Does this ONLY run while plugged in? If I'm parked, not charging, on a cold day, am I going to see my SOC drop at the end of a day with sub-zero(F) temps?
The battery heater is a set of electric heating elements attached to the battery case. It comes on at -20ºC (-4ºF) and goes off at -10ºC (14ºF) and draws 300 watts. The purpose of the heater is to keep the battery from freezing and allow the car to be drivable at very cold temperatures. LEAF owners have found that the battery doesn't charge well near -20ºC but driving it heats the battery up and makes charging work better. Regen at battery temperatures around -10ºC is pretty much nonexistent IME.
 
dgpcolorado said:
What drees and I were referring to was an actual reduction in regen power at higher speeds versus lower speeds, which makes no sense at all.

Right, so I don't believe I have enough info. to confirm whether this is the behavior with 2015.

I drive in eco all the time, and the setting is now retained when you start the day. And I don't believe there is any throttle difference between D and B drive mode (on the plus side of zero). But if I want to feather the throttle to zero and let wind and friction slow me down, I have to steadily ease off the throttle as my speed reduces to remain in the zero throttle spot. That is to say the zero spot at 10MPH is very different than the zero spot at 40MPH. Trying to track zero as your speed changes is rather tedious, so neutral works well, and ensures zero unintended power applied, and zero unintended regen is applied as well.
 
kikngas said:
dgpcolorado said:
What drees and I were referring to was an actual reduction in regen power at higher speeds versus lower speeds, which makes no sense at all.
Right, so I don't believe I have enough info. to confirm whether this is the behavior with 2015.
Yes, this experiment will need to be done by someone with a 2015 SV or SL.
I drive in eco all the time, and the setting is now retained when you start the day. And I don't believe there is any throttle difference between D and B drive mode (on the plus side of zero). But if I want to feather the throttle to zero and let wind and friction slow me down, I have to steadily ease off the throttle as my speed reduces to remain in the zero throttle spot. That is to say the zero spot at 10MPH is very different than the zero spot at 40MPH. Trying to track zero as your speed changes is rather tedious, so neutral works well, and ensures zero unintended power applied, and zero unintended regen is applied as well.
You should be correct about the difference in D and B modes on the plus side of the throttle. All B mode does, as I understand it, is add more regen on the "minus" side of the throttle position.

That said, there is no simple way, short of an aftermarket meter of some sort, to know when you are at zero power on the S model, save for shifting to neutral. And even when you are coasting in neutral the deceleration due to drag will decrease as your speed decreases. That should be the same as when you hold the accelerator at zero power in Eco, except that you have no way to accurately determine where that position is, unlike those with SV or SL models. For coasting in the S model, neutral is your best option, as you suggest.
 
I drive a '15 S. Left the house yesterday on full charge. No AC or heat needed, just had the windows slightly open. Drove 82.5 miles around town, in regular mode with occasional shifts into B mode. Mostly surface streets, though about 25 miles were on the expressway at 65mph. I did put it into neutral and coast down a few hills on the final leg home and arrived home with 8% SOC remaining. I was greatly tempted to circle the neighborhood to see what I could get but opted not to.
 
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