Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

evnow said:

I'm not saying what happened with Pheonix EVs is acceptable - and that is where the capacity warranty that Nissan added post-sales comes in. I've seen people saying if the battery didn't keep 70% capacity for 8 years - Nissan needs to pay. I think this is where people are asking Nissan to accept all the risk.

BTW, we are drifting slowly off topic. May be we should split the recent posts out of this thread.

Click to expand...

I have NEVER, EVER said that. I also think that's quite ridiculous. However, I do think there is a better way than 5/60.

Edit: Actually, I may have said that I thought this was more about materials/workmanship, and therefore the 8/96 warranty was more applicable than the capacity warranty. I will 'fess up to that.

pkulak said:

timhebb said:

Frankly, I don't even understand most of the rest of what you're trying to say in your post, other than to justify the nihilism of the opening assertion, which I utterly reject.

Click to expand...

Legislate it, or it won't happen. That's my point. I'm not a nihilist, I'm a realist.

http://i.imgur.com/kxYc3vw.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Fair enough. (Appreciate the nod to The Big Lebowski)

I still have a bit of a problem with the notion that one needn't do the right thing unless everyone else is forced to do it, too, which is what you appear to be asserting.

TomT said:

It only cost me $6 a month to go from 12K to 15K a year on my lease. I expect to be at almost exactly 60K when I turn it in at the end of four years...

JPWhite said:

Since I purchased, my commute has increased from 28 miles round trip to 76 miles round trip. Had I leased I would have been fleeced at lease termination had I estimated 12,000 miles/yr, or been forced to buy at a high residual.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I needed 20k/year and at the time I was probably looking at close to $500/mo in lease payments with $0 down on my SL with a 36mo lease. After 3 years I would have paid $15.5k considering the $2,500 CVRP rebate. I bought outright instead, my purchase price before taxes was somewhere under 25k considering the fed and CVRP rebates. Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm entertaining the thought my Leaf will be worth at least $10,000 in September, so if I were to sell it then I would be minus $15k after 3 years and 60k miles. So it is a tie in my case if not better, as of now anyways, especially considering you can get dinged for excess wear and damages when returning your lease.

mwalsh said:

I have NEVER, EVER said that. I also think that's quite ridiculous. However, I do think there is a better way than 5/60.

Click to expand...

Didn't mean you said it (that's why I put it as "people").

So, what is the "right" capacity warranty ? How would we determine what is right ? What is the risk buyers should take - and what Nissan take ?

I don't think these are simple questions we can answer definitely. There is also no "one" right answer to these questions.

evnow said:

So, what is the "right" capacity warranty ? How would we determine what is right ? What is the risk buyers should take - and what Nissan take ?

Click to expand...

That's why I like the pro-rated idea - Nissan shoulders some risk, and the buyer shoulders some risk.

mwalsh said:

evnow said:

So, what is the "right" capacity warranty ? How would we determine what is right ? What is the risk buyers should take - and what Nissan take ?

Click to expand...

That's why I like the pro-rated idea - Nissan shoulders some risk, and the buyer shoulders some risk.

Click to expand...

Before we go to a pro-rated warranty - we need to agree on a capacity warranty / acceptable degradation curve. If there is no agreement on that (like the one Nissan is offering) - can can't think of any pro-rated warranties.

evnow said:

If there is no agreement on that (like the one Nissan is offering) - can can't think of any pro-rated warranties.

Click to expand...

I think 5/60 has always been a good starting point when talking about free replacement, but I don't feel we can ignore folks who are destined to just pass that arbitrary cutoff without qualifying.

Anyway, like you've already said...getting too far OT to continue discussion on this here.

Almost all car parts with a pro-rated warranty are no longer controlled by the automakers. Tires, brakes, 12V batteries, and other expendible parts are now profitable enough that aftermarket products dominate.

The main thing a pro-rated warranty guarantees is that the consumer must continue to use the same vendor or lose out on the warranty.

Here is to a brighter future, where your high voltage batteries can be replaced at Sears while you shop at the mall.

mwalsh said:

I think 5/60 has always been a good starting point when talking about free replacement, but I don't feel we can ignore folks who are destined to just pass that arbitrary cutoff without qualifying.

Anyway, like you've already said...getting too far OT to continue discussion on this here.

Click to expand...

I disagree that this is OT, as the cost of battery replacement (and whether or not the cost should be pro-rated somehow - and I certainly agree that it should be) is the topic.

So I'll re-iterate what I've said earlier:

Announcing a very reasonable replacement price and making the latest pack compatible with all LEAF is a very good step forward which definitely helps in a lot of ways.

That said, it still leaves something to be desired for people in a number of situations:
1. People who will just miss losing 4 bars by 5 years / 60k miles
2. People who need more than 8 bars to continue driving their LEAF (see kolmstead's example - only 38 mile commute, but lives where it's very hot in summer so capacity loss is fast and winters are cold which means despite a 38 mile commute at modest speeds of 55 mph or less is likely to not be possible after 3.5 years). Perhaps the battery lease would be helpful for circumstances like this, but only if you can get one that keeps capacity at a higher level than 9+ bars. There are also a lot of other possible solutions, too.

evnow said:

Before we go to a pro-rated warranty - we need to agree on a capacity warranty / acceptable degradation curve.

Click to expand...

I've long argued that ideally we would have expected capacity loss curves for various climates. Then we would have enough data to determine whether or not the battery will last long enough for our particular use case.

evnow said:

JPWhite said:

Agreed, and we must understand that as early adopter types we assume risks others wouldn't even consider for a New York minute. As such we share the risk with Nissan with for unexpected costs or bumps in the EV road along the way. Unfortunately we hit a bump in the road.

Click to expand...

Let us be clear. There was an easy way in which we could make Nissan take the complete risk - by leasing. But no - many wanted to roll the dice to save a few bucks - now are unhappy it didn't turn out well.

Click to expand...

It's somewhat unfair to suggest "rolling the dice" was the only reason to buy. Some folks, like myself, never wanted to be in a position to watch my lease car sent to the crusher, aka GM EV-1.

Of course LEAF leases work differently from the Ev1 or others like the fit ev in that you can always opt to buy out your lease if, say, Nissan were to discontinue the LEAF and go on a crushing spree. Probably a bad move though, just like people with the ev1s would have found out keeping one of these things going without support from the manufacturer is difficult to impossible.

evchels said:

TomT said:

Good point. I wonder what happened to the coupon that warranty replacement people were told they would get for a lizard battery later...

Click to expand...

I've confirmed this is still going to happen, though I expect the logistics of how exactly it will work were probably being sorted in parallel with this effort and the lizard battery becoming available to dealers. Now that it has, details should be forthcoming.

mwalsh said:

For those not "black-listed" with the B0133 notation against their cars, I'd like to see an upgrade path under warranty replacement, so that an owner get get the lizard pack and update hardware rather than a remanufactured/new battery pack of the old type shipped from Japan. Preferably at no additional cost (can't be any less to freight from Japan than it would be to giving up a couple of hundred bucks of hardware, right?), but at nominal cost if Nissan feels that's what is has to do.

Click to expand...

I've not heard anything other than that warranty replacements would be done with the lizard pack, once they were available. That's been the suggestion since the hot pack was announced last Aug.

Click to expand...

It seems Nissan has changed it's mind regarding installing lizard batteries as warranty replacements. (I still do not understand the reason for this decision)

I cant believe I actually read through 25 pages of mostly nonsense, off topic discussions and whines.

I would think that the 2011-2012 should offer an upgraded charger at a reasonable fee. Perhaps instead of 6.6 perhaps a 9 KW

I can tell you 100% that is not going to happen. Manufacturers prefer that the older models go obsolete and you buy the latest model with more features. Offhand I can't think of one example where a manufacturer has ever offered a retrofit to make a 3 or 4 year old model function as good as the latest one, especially when there is an aftermarket upgrade available.
How long do you plan on keeping your 2011/2012? Are you going to qualify for a free new battery?

kieranmullen said:

I cant believe I actually read through 25 pages of mostly nonsense, off topic discussions and whines.

I would think that the 2011-2012 should offer an upgraded charger at a reasonable fee. Perhaps instead of 6.6 perhaps a 9 KW

Click to expand...

And I can't believe you added to it with an off-topic whine of your own.

Here ya go http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no complaint. Asking about if anyone knows about a charger upgrade and cost.

You delete your pointless post and I will delete this one.

mwalsh said:

kieranmullen said:

I cant believe I actually read through 25 pages of mostly nonsense, off topic discussions and whines.

I would think that the 2011-2012 should offer an upgraded charger at a reasonable fee. Perhaps instead of 6.6 perhaps a 9 KW

Click to expand...

And I can't believe you added to it with an off-topic whine of your own.

Click to expand...

There is not and never will be anything from Nissan. The only option is an aftermarket like the Brusa.

kieranmullen said:

I have no complaint. Asking about if anyone knows about a charger upgrade and cost.

Click to expand...

I'm very happy about this announcement from Nissan. Although my LEAF will likely miss the warranty threshold and I'd prefer to be able to replace the original, defective battery pack at a pro-rated, discounted price, I do have to admit that the replacement price Nissan is charging is quite reasonable and is likely subsidized.

I will probably not have our LEAF's pack replaced, as I work from home and it's far more economical to keep the degraded pack for shorter drives and "just drive the Prius" on longer drives that the LEAF can no longer handle with ease. Still, it's very comforting to know that we have the option of getting a new pack whenever we choose.

Also, a Brusa charger would be nice, but at ~ $2K, I'm not sure the ROI is there for us. Right now I'm thinking I'd rather save the money and eventually purchase a used Tesla (or another Nissan if they have something competitive).

kieranmullen said:

I cant believe I actually read through 25 pages of mostly nonsense, off topic discussions and whines.

I would think that the 2011-2012 should offer an upgraded charger at a reasonable fee. Perhaps instead of 6.6 perhaps a 9 KW

Click to expand...

Heat kills batteries. Pump 9 KW into a leaf and watch it melt down.

bbrowncods said:

kieranmullen said:

I cant believe I actually read through 25 pages of mostly nonsense, off topic discussions and whines.

I would think that the 2011-2012 should offer an upgraded charger at a reasonable fee. Perhaps instead of 6.6 perhaps a 9 KW

Click to expand...

Heat kills batteries. Pump 9 KW into a leaf and watch it melt down.

Click to expand...

DCQC is 50kW. 9 KW should be fine, DCQC stills pumps in at that rate at about 80% SOC.