Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

palmermd said:

OK, after a little over three years we lost our first battery bar. As of today, 1st of June 2014 we have 54.91Ahr SOH 83% and Hx 68.63%, 25,382 miles, 1890 L1/L2 charges and 0 DCQC charges. We have charged the car to 80% only since the start of ownership, and have charged to 100% perhaps 10 times total, so we really took care of the battery. I originally purchased the car for myself, but my wife took over ownership of the car shortly thereafter. She has a short commute early in the AM (3am) and returns home at about 8am, so its outside in the cool part of the day and is kept in the garage during the heat of the day. I think that is how we managed to make it last as long as we did before losing the first bar. I've been away on business for the past 5 weeks, so I'm not sure exactly when it was lost, but sometime in the past 5 weeks, and today was the first time I drove the car since returning home Friday. I thought it was charged to 11 for some reason when I first got in, and then realized that we lost the top bar.

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Wow! I lost my first CB at 54.9 AH too! But only at 8000/8 mos. (Dec.). Then a few months later, my AH went to 56.9! Now it's dropped to 56.1. However, compared to my 2011, my BC is at 86% vs. less than 80% so I still can go 100 miles city and 100 miles freeway at 55 mph actual (58 on speedo.

Stoaty said:

Valdemar said:

The question remains how much are we willing to pay? I'm not buying for sure given 25%-30% degradation in SoCal after 3 years being "the norm", I'll drive the car until I no longer can and then dispose of it.

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Well, if 25-30% is the norm for degradation at 3 years in Southern California, then my conservative charging/driving strategy (17.7% loss, 3 years ownership next week) may be making a significant difference. I am doing better than the Battery Aging Model by 0.5%. The Battery Aging Model projects 6.6 years total until I hit 70% capacity remaining.

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I'm slightly worse than what the model predicts (215 gids vs. 218) and expect to lose 25% or more after 3 years in September at 60,000 miles. Given that other people are getting their batteries replaced with fewer miles on their cars around here I suspect I'm doing well.

I did a drive yesterday afternoon from Pasadena to south Orange County to see family. Usually I would get down to the Spectrum at low battery warning or even better (and going 65 or higher). But yesterday... in heavy traffic (mostly stop and go with a few bursts to 60 mph) I got there in about two hours just over VLBW! :evil:

I'm not sure what has changed. I'm down to 53.8 Ah and 66% Hx, sure, but even my last run down there I wasn't that much better battery wise. I haven't crunched the numbers but the seat of the pants feeling is that I'm down significantly more capacity just over the last few months. Part of that is probably the wheels and tires. Part of it might be I'm hitting a "psychological" threshold. Whatever it is man... it's really starting to suck.

I'm considering getting an old Honda Insight or Prius or something for longer trips. :|

Those tires/wheels are definitely not going to help compared to stock. Have you done the trip since putting on the wheels/tires? What was your mi/kWh for this trip compared to previous trips? How many miles was your trip? Any HVAC?

If traffic was heavy enough to stop frequently, efficiency is worse than traffic where you don't come to a complete stop. Anyway, you made the trip - and the good news is that there are a good number of QCs along the route. Too bad more of them don't bill by the minute, though.

I have a 2012 Leaf SL with 30,500 miles. Capacity/range is clearly down but I have not lost any capacity bars. P3227 update was applied three months ago. GIDs at full charge had been 230s until warmer temperature this month.
Current readings from LeafDD are as follows:

SOC 91%
C 54.4Ahr
H 78.7%
Gids 221

Does it make sense that I have not lost a bar with these readings?
Is there consensus data on bar loss criteria after this P3227 update?

jfiveash said:

Current readings from LeafDD are as follows:

SOC 91%
C 54.4Ahr
H 78.7%
Gids 221

Does it make sense that I have not lost a bar with these readings?
Is there consensus data on bar loss criteria after this P3227 update?

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There is a lag between the time you hit capacity that should cause loss of a bar and the actual loss. Most lose the first bar around 54-54.5 Ahr. I would be surprised if you didn't lose a bar within 2 months max.

230/281*100 = 81%

That is 19% loss and i would think you should have a lost a bar when you were at 238 Gids at full charge. So not sure why your 12th bar is still sticking.

mkjayakumar said:

230/281*100 = 81%

That is 19% loss and i would think you should have a lost a bar when you were at 238 Gids at full charge. So not sure why your 12th bar is still sticking.

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I was closer to 220 GIDs when I lost my first bar, but he's definitely "in the neighborhood".

THIS IS A DATUM NOT A WHINE

I joined the missing tooth club today.

I suspect some people have babied their Leafs more than I have but not many. 2012 SL Delivery 2/18/12. 14250 miles. Never seen a QC, charged to 100% a half dozen times tops Never seen turtle, VLBW 3 times only. Rarely even LBW! We see >100 and<0 degress exceptionally rarely in a fairly benign SW Indiana microclimate (really - we have significantly different weather even from central IN). I do very little highway driving so >60 maybe 20 times and >70 exactly twice. Lifetime 4.6ml/kWh. About the only no-no I engage in at all is rapid acceleration as I try to pre-emptively dismiss the slow golf cart meme at lights more often than I might.

247 gids fully charged current readings on Spy AHr 55.37 SOH 84% Hx 80.49%.

The car is leased but would still have more than enough miles for my routine for many many years so not a moment's concern for me - just makes me wonder a bit how cautious one must be to slow degradation further than I already have.

EvansvilleLeaf said:

THIS IS A DATUM NOT A WHINE

I joined the missing tooth club today.

<snip details>

The car is leased but would still have more than enough miles for my routine for many many years so not a moment's concern for me - just makes me wonder a bit how cautious one must be to slow degradation further than I already have.

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I suspect in your case it's calendar degradation that's getting you, and other than keeping your battery at 35 deg. or so there's not much you can do to slow that.

TomT said:

The arrangement of the solar system from a Leaf battery's perspective!

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Attachment is no longer visible.

35C is way too hot for the battery if you want to limit degradation... Even 25C will lead to degradation...

GRA said:

I suspect in your case it's calendar degradation that's getting you, and other than keeping your battery at 35 deg. or so there's not much you can do to slow that.

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Stoaty said:

jfiveash said:

Current readings from LeafDD are as follows:

SOC 91%
C 54.4Ahr
H 78.7%
Gids 221

Does it make sense that I have not lost a bar with these readings?
Is there consensus data on bar loss criteria after this P3227 update?

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There is a lag between the time you hit capacity that should cause loss of a bar and the actual loss. Most lose the first bar around 54-54.5 Ahr. I would be surprised if you didn't lose a bar within 2 months max.

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Well that did not take long. Lost first bar today so you were correct.
C 54.3, Gids 223

Getting close to losing my "first bar" on the Toyota Rav4 EV.

I drove 120 miles today from San Diego up north to Orange County, with about 15 miles range remaining.

That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.

36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

19 months, 39,000 miles

TonyWilliams said:

Getting close to losing my "first bar" on the Toyota Rav4 EV.

I drove 120 miles today from San Diego up north to Orange County, with about 15 miles range remaining.

That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.

36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

19 months, 39,000 miles

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Is this an indication that active cooling is overrated for moderately warm climates?

edit: extrapolating to Tesla MS 80, range loss would be 30-40 miles, ouch.

TonyWilliams said:

36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

19 months, 39,000 miles

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That is worse than I expected.

TomT said:

GRA said:

I suspect in your case it's calendar degradation that's getting you, and other than keeping your battery at 35 deg. or so there's not much you can do to slow that.

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35C is way too hot for the battery if you want to limit degradation... Even 25C will lead to degradation...

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I was thinking it would be clear from the context that I was referring to 35 deg. F., not 35C!

If you want a new and better batteries for your Leaf, you don't need to wait for the Nissan sell. The Renault Fluenze before had cells AESC from Nissan and change by LG that are better from heat. Could you do the same because the cell haven the same size.

GRA said:

I was thinking it would be clear from the context that I was referring to 35 deg. F., not 35C!

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Wasn't clear to me. I thought you had lost it!

EvansvilleLeaf said:

I joined the missing tooth club today.

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Sorry about that, Chief!

EvansvilleLeaf said:

2012 SL Delivery 2/18/12. 14250 miles.

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Is your VIN shown incorrect, given that is a 2011 VIN? Perhaps you entered that back when only four digits were allowed?

EvansvilleLeaf said:

I suspect some people have babied their Leafs more than I have but not many.

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EvansvilleLeaf said:

Never seen a QC, charged to 100% a half dozen times tops Never seen turtle, VLBW 3 times only. Rarely even LBW! We see >100 and<0 degress exceptionally rarely in a fairly benign SW Indiana microclimate (really - we have significantly different weather even from central IN). I do very little highway driving so >60 maybe 20 times and >70 exactly twice. Lifetime 4.6ml/kWh. About the only no-no I engage in at all is rapid acceleration as I try to pre-emptively dismiss the slow golf cart meme at lights more often than I might.

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That sounds a lot like our climate here. Differences that I see are that I try to promote the golf-cart meme by driving at low power most of the time. And I charge to 100% approximately once each week, so perhaps 150 times so far.

EvansvilleLeaf said:

247 gids fully charged current readings on Spy AHr 55.37 SOH 84% Hx 80.49%.

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Has your LEAF had the P3227 update applied, yet? I'm going to gues that it has not based on how close Hx is to SOH. (Mine diverged significantly immediately after the update.)

In any case, here are my numbers for a 2011 LEAF assembled in June 2011 and purchased on March 16, 2012 with 2011 miles on the odometer. It was a demo vehicle. VIN is 5926.

Imediately before the P3227 update about three weeks ago:
Odo=18,436 mi AHr=58.04 Hlth=85.66%
Yesterday:
Odo=19,002 mi AHr=58.71 Hlth=78.00%

My AHr number is still dropping following the update, so I would take the "Yesterday" reading with a grain of salt. I have no idea how much farther it will drop. If you haven't yet had the update, then you can compare with the other reading.

EvansvilleLeaf said:

The car is leased but would still have more than enough miles for my routine for many many years so not a moment's concern for me - just makes me wonder a bit how cautious one must be to slow degradation further than I already have.

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One thing we have done for the past 18 months is to fill the car only to the point that it will return home with about 30% charge. Then it remains there until just before we need it again. Does that help? I have no idea.

One other note: Cell-pair 37 in our LEAF seems to have a bit less capacity than the other cell pairs. Do you see one of your cell-pairs going below the others when you get to low SOCs, like 20% or below?

Anyway, thanks for the datum! It's good to have something to compare against! Most of the LEAFs on this forum are in quite different climates than ours!