my opinion on electric car after 2300 miles on my leaf

Edison is just 10 cents Super Off Peak rate from 12a to 6a every day using the whole house EV plan. No second meter or new panel costs. Just a phone call to change rate plans.
If you are at work all day with an empty house to avoid the 30/45+ cents on peak rates then you will save money.

If you get 3kw solar you will sell electric at the peak rate and buy at the low overnight rate. Very favorable BTW.

However rates are changing.

Valdemar said:

Yes, both LADWP and Edison have discounted EV TOU rates for charging during off-peak hours, however the up-front cost to get on them can be higher as you need to split the service to 2 meters...

Click to expand...

PG&E has thankfully dropped the 2-meter requirement. So that's real progress from the "new Arabs."

ILETRIC said:

Valdemar said:

Yes, both LADWP and Edison have discounted EV TOU rates for charging during off-peak hours, however the up-front cost to get on them can be higher as you need to split the service to 2 meters...

Click to expand...

PG&E has thankfully dropped the 2-meter requirement. So that's real progress from the "new Arabs."

Click to expand...

How do they figure out the consumption for EV charging w/o the 2nd meter :?:

UkrainianKozak said:

How do you calculate your electricity cost?
You either drive very inefficiently or your electricity cost it way higher than average...

Click to expand...

PG&E rates are a rip-off, as are that of some other utilities in CA. The national average doesn't mean squat for many of us in CA. Try putting in your electricity usage into http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/myaccount/charges/index.page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; w/the 95136 zip and no for CARE. Compare your bill to the estimator (which is too low since it leaves off some taxes and fees).

I'd be curious about your recent usage and cost vs. the above calculator. (I lived in the Seattle area for over ~9 years and can definitely say that Seattle City and Light is very cheap vs. PG&E and Puget Sound Energy is pretty cheap.)

ILETRIC said:

I switched from PG&E E7 to TOU EV rate. I'm down from 28 cents to 18 cents/kW on average. EV rate is only available to EV owners (VIN required).

Click to expand...

TOU EV? You on EVA? For me, EVA is the worst plan to be on: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=337391" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Fortunately, I charge for free on workdays at work.

For more details about our ripoff rates, see the links at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=331767#p331767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I did some rough comparisons long before I had a Leaf at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155508#p155508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and I also got some assistance in the following post.

For people w/plans that require a 2nd meter, I'm pretty sure that 2nd meter isn't free and then that requires a hardwired 240 volt EVSE (to prevent you from powering non-EVs from it), which isn't free either.

Tomasz said:

Plus you need to calculate change in maintenance costs (or lack of them). If you drive 1250 miles a month you probably can add at least $10/month for oil changes on the Prius side that you will never spend on Leaf. Air filter? Transmission fluid? Antifreeze? Spark plugs? O2 sensors? (note: I have never owned a Prius, have no idea what maintenance is scheduled there).

Click to expand...

Valdemar said:

Tomasz said:

If you drive 1250 miles a month you probably can add at least $10/month for oil changes on the Prius side that you will never spend on Leaf.

Click to expand...

Last time I checked Prius service manual calls for 10k mile/1 year oil change interval, so $10/mo is a bit too much unless you go to a place that charges $80 for an oil change on a Prius (I'm sure they do exist).

Click to expand...

Current gen Priuses (2010+) require synthetic and have the above OCI. So, an oil change is a bit pricey, probably $70 or so. Mine's a Gen 2 so that doesn't require synthetic and they have a 6 mo/5K mile OCI.

For my Gen 2 Prius (covers 04-09 model year):
air filter: Cheap, easy to DIY.
transmission fluid: Toyota doesn't have any interval and some dealers try to talk you out if it (not a good idea IMHO). IIRC, I got mine changed at 50K miles for $100.
antifreeze: Not due for change until 10 years/100K miles. I got a free change of the inverter coolant due to a (free) limited service campaign to replace the inverter pump.
spark plugs: Not due until 12 years or 120K miles.
O2 sensor: Haven't needed it yet. No maintenance interval listed.

Valdemar said:

Yes, both LADWP and Edison have discounted EV TOU rates for charging during off-peak hours, however the up-front cost to get on them can be higher as you need to split the service to 2 meters vs. just adding an extra breaker to an existing panel for an L2 EVSE or nothing at all if L1 is sufficient.

Click to expand...

Installing a 2nd meter is definitely more expensive but there is no need to "split the service." This is how mine is set up:

Main meter --> Main panel --> 30 amp breaker --> 2nd meter --> shutoff switch --> EVSE

This is how my EVSE is set up as per the requirements of my municipality. If my municipality offered a special EV charging rate, they simply charge me that for the kWH used by the EVSE and subtract that from the total kWH as taken from the main meter.

Despite the second meter, I do NOT get a special EV charging rate, only regular or off-peak plans. They say they need the separate meter (provided by them, but still needs its own meter box provided by you) to monitor the additional loads imposed by EV charging at home so they can plan and budget for future infrastructure upgrades.

Sounds like rules differ across utilities, and perhaps even different areas serviced by the same utility. The only way SCE would allow me to get on the EV TOU plan was to split the service into 2 meters.

They are probably wanting a "split" service for two reasons:

1. So they can just bill you as if the EVSE were a separate dwelling;
2. To make more work for their crews, who now have to run a dedicated "drop" to the second meter

Otherwise there is really no need for the second meter to have its own dedicated service. Assuming both meters are read at the same time (no reason not to) they simply subtract the EVSE's sum meter reading from that of the main meter to get the billing rates correct. With smart meters they already know how much electricity you're using at any given minute.

smkettner said:

Edison is just 10 cents Super Off Peak rate from 12a to 6a every day using the whole house EV plan. No second meter or new panel costs. Just a phone call to change rate plans. If you are at work all day with an empty house to avoid the 30/45+ cents on peak rates then you will save money.

Click to expand...

That may sound good at first blush, but you are fooling yourself by focusing on the Super Off Peak rate. With a single meter (or a split off meter like RonDawg describes) you have to think about your TOTAL use. I don't know about SCE, but for the PG&E EV schedule, the weekday peak period runs from 2PM to 9PM. Do you have an empty house until 9PM? Or do you come home at 6PM and try to cool it off in the summer? That will cost you 37¢/kWh, as will cooking if you don't use natural gas. Want to run the furnace in the evening to heat the house in the winter? Even with a gas furnace the blower costs 27¢/kWh, as does your electric range. Not to mention that it gets dark around 5PM.

So, yeah, you can pretend that you are charging your LEAF for 10¢/kWh, but what good does that do you if it doubles or triples the cost of the other electricity you use? That's why I insist that you have to look at the whole story. What's your total cost if you don't have an EV? What's your total cost when you add the EV? That tells you the effective rate for charging the EV, not some teaser value you could get if you shut off all your other electric usage.

Ray

smkettner said:

Edison is just 10 cents Super Off Peak rate from 12a to 6a every day using the whole house EV plan. No second meter or new panel costs. Just a phone call to change rate plans.
If you are at work all day with an empty house to avoid the 30/45+ cents on peak rates then you will save money.

If you get 3kw solar you will sell electric at the peak rate and buy at the low overnight rate. Very favorable BTW.

However rates are changing.

Click to expand...

What do you mean regarding the rates changing? Is there some announced plan about how net metering will change and that will affect how much money they will give you for the electricity you generate?

I have read rumors about it, but nothing really concrete. It changes the ROI on a solar system for sure.

paulk said:

I guess I have no option at this point than to feel better knowing I contribute to the environment.

Click to expand...

And national security by not using imported oil

I don't know what kind of EVSE's you have.
My Blink (and I'm no Blink fan) Tells me EXACTLY what I spend to charge the car.
Plug in the rate, and it will even do the Math.
MY AV unit is hooked to a TED meter, and I know exactly what that draws as well (Thing count's frickin electrons or something. Pretty accurate)

My Car has 11,218 Miles on it, and I have ACTUALLY spent $219.52 on electric for it.
($.08 kw at home, $0 at free places, $0.00 when the Blink L3's were free, etc)

I also have a 2012 Chevy Suburban 2500 (need it).
I spend that in 2 Fill ups.
2 Fill ups!

I LOVE my Leaf.
I'm 57, and it still makes me giggle.

If Pennsylvania had ANY available funds (that they can find :evil for PV, Id be screwing Panels to the garage this second.
What a weird deal after driving ICE for all these years.
FREE transportation.
There are people out there that stick $100+ in their tanks every week just to commute and run errands?
How Weird.

KillaWhat said:

My Blink (and I'm no Blink fan) Tells me EXACTLY what I spend to charge the car. Plug in the rate, and it will even do the Math.

Click to expand...

Aye, there's the rub. The Blink will tell you how much electricity you send to the car, but in California there is no math which will convert that to what you spend. Depending on what schedule you are on the rate will vary by time of day or total usage for the month or month of the year or some combination of those factors.

Ray

planet4ever said:

KillaWhat said:

My Blink (and I'm no Blink fan) Tells me EXACTLY what I spend to charge the car. Plug in the rate, and it will even do the Math.

Click to expand...

Aye, there's the rub. The Blink will tell you how much electricity you send to the car, but in California there is no math which will convert that to what you spend. Depending on what schedule you are on the rate will vary by time of day or total usage for the month or month of the year or some combination of those factors.

Click to expand...

Yup. I am on my utility's standard plan (can't use TOU because I work at night and sleep during the day) and my usage is tiered depending on how many kWH I pull per day, like many other utilities in this state. To encourage conservation, people who stay below a certain threshold are charged less per kWH than those who go above it, and some utilities like PG&E have as many as four different usage tiers, with steeply increasing prices.

I can guesstimate how much my car costs to charge using an average cents/kWH rate as computed from my last bill, but that's as close as I can get. My last bill for example I am paying an average of 12.6 cents/kWH, excluding taxes and regulatory fees. Even though both my main and EVSE meters are "smart" meters, I can't tell how much each is staying within each tier, and my utility bill does not tell me how much electricity I've used within each one.

planet4ever said:

KillaWhat said:

My Blink (and I'm no Blink fan) Tells me EXACTLY what I spend to charge the car. Plug in the rate, and it will even do the Math.

Click to expand...

Aye, there's the rub. The Blink will tell you how much electricity you send to the car, but in California there is no math which will convert that to what you spend. Depending on what schedule you are on the rate will vary by time of day or total usage for the month or month of the year or some combination of those factors.

Ray

Click to expand...

IIRC Blink takes care about time of day, you can define your own peak/off-peak transitions with individual cost assignments, and I think even summer/winter rate differences. Of course this all doesn't help if you're on a single meter tiered plan, but you can get an idea about your usage patterns still.

planet4ever said:

smkettner said:

Edison is just 10 cents Super Off Peak rate from 12a to 6a every day using the whole house EV plan. No second meter or new panel costs. Just a phone call to change rate plans. If you are at work all day with an empty house to avoid the 30/45+ cents on peak rates then you will save money.

Click to expand...

That may sound good at first blush, but you are fooling yourself by focusing on the Super Off Peak rate. With a single meter (or a split off meter like RonDawg describes) you have to think about your TOTAL use. I don't know about SCE, but for the PG&E EV schedule, the weekday peak period runs from 2PM to 9PM. Do you have an empty house until 9PM? Or do you come home at 6PM and try to cool it off in the summer? That will cost you 37¢/kWh, as will cooking if you don't use natural gas. Want to run the furnace in the evening to heat the house in the winter? Even with a gas furnace the blower costs 27¢/kWh, as does your electric range. Not to mention that it gets dark around 5PM.

So, yeah, you can pretend that you are charging your LEAF for 10¢/kWh, but what good does that do you if it doubles or triples the cost of the other electricity you use? That's why I insist that you have to look at the whole story. What's your total cost if you don't have an EV? What's your total cost when you add the EV? That tells you the effective rate for charging the EV, not some teaser value you could get if you shut off all your other electric usage.

Ray

Click to expand...

Summer On-Peak is 10a to 6p business weekdays. I do wait until 6p to cool the house some but not much is needed because I run it pretty low overnight and it coasts through the day just fine.

EV or not regular schedule D will also put you at these same high rates in the top tier. Many of my neighbors run $300 to $500 per month in summer. I rarely go over $200... and I am the only EV. That was before 3kW solar.... past summer I was about $30.

thait84 said:

smkettner said:

Edison is just 10 cents Super Off Peak rate from 12a to 6a every day using the whole house EV plan. No second meter or new panel costs. Just a phone call to change rate plans.
If you are at work all day with an empty house to avoid the 30/45+ cents on peak rates then you will save money.

If you get 3kw solar you will sell electric at the peak rate and buy at the low overnight rate. Very favorable BTW.

However rates are changing.

Click to expand...

What do you mean regarding the rates changing? Is there some announced plan about how net metering will change and that will affect how much money they will give you for the electricity you generate?

I have read rumors about it, but nothing really concrete. It changes the ROI on a solar system for sure.

Click to expand...

Application in for schedule D to combine tier 2 & 3.

Tier 1 goes up 3 cents, tier 2 16 cents and tier 3 27 cents becomes tier 2 at 20.5 cents, tier 4 31 cents becomes tier 3 at 25 cents.

Looks like the base rate is increasing and SCE over charges for top tier will be reduced.

Sounds Very Confusing!
How do you California Leafers ever know what you are paying for electric?

I pay $08.1/Kw hour.
Night, Day, Winter, Summer, aardvark, whatever.

Some of us have separate meters for our EVSEs, especially those who get a cheaper rate specifically for EV charging, though my utility does not have such a program. A few do it "just because."

But you sometimes don't get enough detailed information to know exactly how much the car is costing you to charge. For example, my utility does not break down now many kWH I used in each tier of pricing, only the total amount of kWH for both the main meter and the EVSE meter.

KillaWhat said:

Sounds Very Confusing!
How do you California Leafers ever know what you are paying for electric?

I pay $08.1/Kw hour.
Night, Day, Winter, Summer, aardvark, whatever.

Click to expand...

My case is trivial, I have 2 meters at the service entrance, the 2nd meter is only for the EV, so I know exactly how much I pay for charging as it is listed in a separate section on my bill.