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surfingslovak
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:22 pm

tokenride wrote:You can imagine why it's tough to warranty a battery. It can be subject to too many variables. The best option would be to drive up to a station and switch it out every time you want get a full one.
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Sorry, come again?

smkettner
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Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:30 pm

I know I have done nothing wrong yet the battery is not lasting.
If Nissan cannot make good on some sort of warranty I'm gone.
And I assume many others too. :|
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

tokenride
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Leaf Number: 004938

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:41 pm

surfingslovak wrote:
tokenride wrote:You can imagine why it's tough to warranty a battery. It can be subject to too many variables. The best option would be to drive up to a station and switch it out every time you want get a full one.
Image

Sorry, come again?


Companies dont want to over warranty batteries since they will degrade no matter what. I think that owning vs leasing it, and then replacing it would always be too expensive. Therefore, if there were an infrastructure of battery stations with battery packs charged and ready. You could drive up and have your empty battery switched out with a fresh battery. This would take two minutes. I remember reading about this concept from a European company that has some stations like this.
Black SL / Plate reads: HATEOIL
Obtained Full $5000 California Rebate
Had battery replaced under new warranty on 9/12/13
Driven over 40,500 miles as of 9/13/13
30 miles east of Los Angeles - Pomona, CA

cwerdna
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:51 pm

tokenride wrote:
surfingslovak wrote:
tokenride wrote:You can imagine why it's tough to warranty a battery. It can be subject to too many variables. The best option would be to drive up to a station and switch it out every time you want get a full one.
Image

Sorry, come again?


Companies dont want to over warranty batteries since they will degrade no matter what. I think that owning vs leasing it, and then replacing it would always be too expensive. Therefore, if there were an infrastructure of battery stations with battery packs charged and ready. You could drive up and have your empty battery switched out with a fresh battery. This would take two minutes. I remember reading about this concept from a European company that has some stations like this.

Better Place did battery swapping via its stations. Not surprisingly, they went bankrupt. See viewtopic.php?p=295700#p295700 and the posts before it re: their death spiral that preceded it.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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surfingslovak
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:12 pm

tokenride wrote:Companies dont want to over warranty batteries since they will degrade no matter what.
Image

I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with this statement. It should be possible to build a fairly robust battery, which would last a decade or longer without experiencing unacceptable degradation levels. We already had batteries that would meet this design goal in the previous generation of EVs, which were on the road around the millennium. Some of the 1st gen RAV4 EV drivers are still getting nearly full utility our of their EVs a decade and many miles later. The particular problem we face is that the previous generation of batteries (NiMH) cannot be used in EVs due to a patent held by Chevron. These batteries were also heavier and less energy dense, which makes them less desirable given the recent advances in battery technology. Also, some of the raw materials, especially the heavy metals, are not desirable due to their toxicity and relatively high prices.

The Prius, which is a hybrid and not an EV, is allowed to continue use this technology. When you look at the battery Toyota was recently using, it weighs around 100 lbs and provides a little more than 1 kWh of capacity. If you took this exact same technology and scaled it to the capacity level the LEAF is using, the battery would literally weigh a ton. The lithium-ion batteries in the new generation of EVs are more advanced and desirable, but also less proven. The first automaker to put them into larger-scale use was Tesla with their Roadster, I believe. Generally speaking, this means that these cars have been on the road less than 5 years. It's probably fair to say that the technology is not fully proven and field tested yet. As an aside, Tesla used a robust active cooling system to mitigate some of the risks they assumed by pursuing some of these design decision.

A warranty arrangement usually gives the manufacturer an additional incentive to come up with better and more robust systems and designs. The consumers on the other hand has some assurance that they will get a certain minimum level of utility of out the car they purchased. This arrangement is not ideal, obviously, but it has been shown to work reasonably well. I think it's encouraging to see that other EV manufactures seem to be offering a capacity warranty with their new products this year as a matter of fact. In that sense, however painful the experience might have been for some, early LEAF drivers might have their place in EV history.

The other alternative is not to sell the battery, but lease it instead. The ownership stays with the manufacturer in this case, and they sell a service with an associated performance guarantee. In a way, it's like an unlimited warranty, but you have to pay for it. Not dissimilar to the battery swap scheme you suggested above. Although the perpetual rental option was not popular with owners on MNL, the EV industry might try to move in this direction. Car buyers in Europe are typically already offered the option of either buying or leasing the battery when they get a new vehicle.

(I apologize for the verbosity of this post, and for stating the obvious, but I felt we had to find some common ground.)

GRA
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:31 pm

surfingslovak wrote:
tokenride wrote:Companies dont want to over warranty batteries since they will degrade no matter what.
Image

<snip a lot>

The other alternative is not to sell the battery, but lease it instead. The ownership stays with the manufacturer in this case, and they sell a service with an associated performance guarantee. In a way, it's like an unlimited warranty, but you have to pay for it. Not dissimilar to the battery swap scheme you suggested above. Although the perpetual rental option was not popular with owners on MNL, the EV industry might try to move in this direction. Car buyers in Europe are typically already offered the option of either buying or leasing the battery when they get a new vehicle.

And the Smart ED offers this in the U.S. (I know you know, but maybe tokenride doesn't).

Warrantying batteries is just like any other product. You set the warranty bar high enough based on your testing/real world data that only a small % of outliers will need replacement under warranty. If you've got accurate data and done your sums correctly, the amount you've set aside for warranty (in the MSRP, typically 5% for an ICE car as a whole, but presumably considerably more for a BEV with immature technology) is enough to cover the claims. Lacking accurate data or doing the math wrong can be costly, but if you want to keep your customers you'd better pay it without quibbling.

Nissan is now claiming that they will (hopefully) have a hot weather battery available next year. Until they're ready to put their money where their mouth is and warranty capacity to match the claims they made in 2010, i.e. 80% for 5 yr./60k miles, why would anyone put any faith in these new claims, which are presumably based on the same type of accelerated testing that proved so inadequate in real life with the current battery?

Lacking any large-scale real world data from customers when they start using the new batteries (assuming it goes into production), even warrantying them initially at 80% (none of this 'bar' nonsense) for 3yr./36k mile would be a step forward. At least that way people would know they had a guaranteed minimum capacity for the length of a lease.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jimbennett
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Leaf Number: 020656
Location: Redlands, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:51 am

I had lost my first bar two weeks ago at about 9000 miles and 15 months--saw it come back this morning. It was the first time temps in my garage dropped under 62 in three months. I had 242 gids after a 100% charge yesterday morning.

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vrwl
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:05 am

jimbennett wrote:I had lost my first bar two weeks ago at about 9000 miles and 15 months--saw it come back this morning. It was the first time temps in my garage dropped under 62 in three months. I had 242 gids after a 100% charge yesterday morning.


Wow. I can't remember reading if that's ever happened before.
Vicki
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19630 miles/10 Bars/4.0kWh/mi
205 GID at 100%/51.37 Ahr/78% SOH/59.91% Hx

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drees
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:55 am

Lost my 12th bar today.

2 years 3 months since purchase (June 2011)
22245 miles
55.21 Ah
235 / 194 GID 80% / 100%
4.5 mi/kWh average

Typical usage: Charge to 80% nearly always. End timer set to 5:40AM (actual finish time around 5:00 +- 15 min). Drive about 22-24 mi / day. Longer drives on weekends. Never sits at 100% for very long (hasn't sat at 100% for more than an hour or two). QCd 4 times. Have never seen the 7th temp bar. Never seen turtle. Only seen VLBW a few times.

Ever since the P3227 update (also had grabby brake update) have noticed about 1-less bubble of regen from 70-80% SOC. Didn't see that the first year of ownership until late fall / winter with cool temps. Today I even saw only 3 bubbles of regen briefly despite battery being pretty warm.

Range seems to be down at least 10 miles on a 100% charge, if not more compared to the first year of ownership.

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'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

ColumbiaRiverGorge
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Delivery Date: 06 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 4992
Location: Hood River, OR

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:59 am

Can someone update Wiki for me? I think I have a distinction that I do not want. I appear to be the first Oregon LEAF owner to report losing a battery capacity bar. What is interesting is that my AHr dropped all the way to 54.44 in the heat of August and has rebounded to 54.84 with the cooler temperatures, and then I lost a bar. I am currently at AHr 54.76, Cap 82.70% & Hlth 68.26%.

I lost my bar sometime last night, with my battery temps. the lowest since last spring, 4 temp. bars, between 53-57 degrees. It was 41 degrees outside this morning. It took 26.5 months of driving the car and 41,124 miles. I also quick charged 189 times (25 to 100%, 89 to 80% or 80+, & 78 20-75% range).
96,000 miles (8 bars, AHr 39.9, 164 Gids, 40% battery degradation) $2120 in Hydro power. 984 QC events (44 to 90-96%, 311 80-89%, 641 (20-79% range). Plate: BYE GAS. Carbon offset: VEGAN & 2011 LEAF Tesla M3 reserved.

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