Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

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^ yes, and a scorching reception from LEAF owners who want some answers and straight-talk from them about the battery replacement pricing.

and i love my LEAF.
 
the meet up with nissan bigs is tomorrow in phoenix.

will one of the attendees -- you know who you are -- promise to update us on all that was said at the show?
no promises to nissan by attendees that you are special and the rest of us are mushrooms.

on the agenda:
syb* program
and
battery degradation


*steal your battery program

want a new battery for your that old LEAF of yours?. NGH. nissan will steal your battery and lease you a replacement for ~$100 a month payment that continues forever. you never own the battery. you never get anything for your stolen battery.
you never get to own your car and its battery again.
 
BBrockman said:
Hi everyone:
First of all, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Brian Brockman, and I am a senior manager in corporate communications at Nissan, based at our Americas HQ in Franklin, Tenn. While LEAF is fairly new to my list of official job responsibilities, I've been engaged in the program for some time, serving as our Midwest communications manager based in Michigan since 2007.
Does anyone from Nissan still read this forum ?

If so would you please give us a summary of today's meeting in Phoenix.

KJD
 
KJD said:
Does anyone from Nissan still read this forum ?

If so would you please give us a summary of today's meeting in Phoenix.

KJD

Yes, I'm sure they do! :)

This is a much smaller and somewhat informal event (so no big presentations or videotaping planned). But most of the drivers attending are active in this forum, and I'll be there too. Between us, we'll do our best to convey whatever information is shared tonight. And I will encourage Brian B and the others to get back in here too.
 
this probably goes without saying but lets have someone push for a tiered option

like $100 a month for 2 years

$85 a month for 3 years

$70 a month for 4 years

or various levels of degradation. This "one size fits all" model simply does not work
 
evchels said:
KJD said:
Does anyone from Nissan still read this forum ?

If so would you please give us a summary of today's meeting in Phoenix.

KJD

Yes, I'm sure they do! :)

This is a much smaller and somewhat informal event (so no big presentations or videotaping planned). But most of the drivers attending are active in this forum, and I'll be there too. Between us, we'll do our best to convey whatever information is shared tonight. And I will encourage Brian B and the others to get back in here too.

I'm still here, and do plan to provide some updates on a number of topics from the information discussed this evening.
 
^^ thanks!!

I love my LEAF, but i reject the SYB program, and would advise against any future purchase by those who like to own their car or pay it off after a reasonable time.
 
mwalsh said:
I know the meeting was only yesterday, but...

Really? No one attending have ANY comment yet?
Meeting ran late last night; the locals are prob still racked out. And the cell service here is way less than stellar, so the out of towners prob can't post yet. (Took me 15 minutes to get this reply up.)
Anyway, there was good info and several people took notes, so it will probably start trickling out today.
 
jhm614 said:
mwalsh said:
I know the meeting was only yesterday, but...

Really? No one attending have ANY comment yet?
Meeting ran late last night; the locals are prob still racked out. And the cell service here is way less than stellar, so the out of towners prob can't post yet. (Took me 15 minutes to get this reply up.)
Anyway, there was good info and several people took notes, so it will probably start trickling out today.


Cool! Thanks for the heads-up.
 
Yeah. It was a late night. As you expected - no announcements of a purchase price however at least there was an explanation. The exciting news last night was they are 80% done with the testing on a new battery chemistry that dramatically addresses the heat issue - enough that the LEAF could even be sold in climates hotter than PHX (like Abh Dhabi). Testing includeS 24/7 soak at 45C and preliminary results show degradation on par with the more moderate climates. This new battery is trending to an April 2014 rollout but folks facing a replacement now shouldn't wait since they want everyone to have one so will give such folks a coupon to replace to the new technology at a date of their choosing. Now to the explanation as to why there has been no price announced.
1) customer research indicated that a big battery replacement cost in the life of the car would turn away more potential buyers (over 80% said they wouldn't buy if faced with a $5000 replacement cost later)
2) cost of battery is dropping and there would be resentment if one person paid $xx,xxx for theirs and next year their neighbor only paid $y,yyy
Later, is was said that people would find the price of the battery "shocking" if it was disclosed. Andy specifically said that they "were not trying to "steal your battery"" - so he does pay attention to this forum :) However, they think announcing a price will be detrimental to the "democratization" of the EV - at least until the price stabilizes.
 
thank you very much for the update.

I am glad to see the SYB has become a term of art in their discussion of the program.

did they promise or provide the long-awaited Q&A -- or do they think we forgot about it?

I would like to see the survey and how they define an "owner" or buyer, as you termed it. in my definition an owner is someone who pays cash or finances outside of the nissan machine and it does not include leasees, unless they really intend to buy the car during or at lease end. in other words, the drivers who are not hedging their bets. (the entire lease thing is a poison, except for those who can write it off on a schedule c.)

sure, you can survey folks who arent owners and their response will be as nissan suggests, but these are not folks who keep their cars for more than 3-5 years, as many of us do. i have a 1999 volvo t5 with stick that i had detailed yesterday. it has 130k miles on it.
the only cars i have gotten rid of in less than 10 years ever, were either stolen or wrecked. there are lots of folks like me. i get their marketing problem but the survey is bogus.

i expect to have the LEAF for 10 years, if i can keep the range at a useable figure. i would be unlikely to lease a battery to do so.
 
TickTock said:
The exciting news last night was they are 80% done with the testing on a new battery chemistry that dramatically addresses the heat issue - enough that the LEAF could even be sold in climates hotter than PHX (like Abh Dhabi). Testing includeS 24/7 soak at 45C and preliminary results show degradation on par with the more moderate climates. This new battery is trending to an April 2014 rollout but folks facing a replacement now shouldn't wait since they want everyone to have one so will give such folks a coupon to replace to the new technology at a date of their choosing. Now to the explanation as to why there has been no price announced.

It's too bad that Nissan has already established a reputation of over-promising and under-delivering when it comes to how robust their battery is. Maybe a real-life test (like putting the battery in a real car in Phoenix and having it run through the summers of 2014 and 2015) would be more convincing. I'll keep watching. They have until my Volt lease expires in June 2016 to demonstrate they can produce a product which can stand up to South Florida's warm weather.
 
Weatherman said:
Maybe a real-life test (like putting the battery in a real car in Phoenix and having it run through the summers of 2014 and 2015) would be more convincing.
I'm am reasonably certain this is already happening in 2013. At least there are some Nissan employees driving around in prototypes in the valley and I would venture they have this technology. It only took one summer with the 2011 to see the issue (I was raising concerns back on Oct'11 but at the time everyone thought I just had a lemon). Perhaps this is part of the remaining 20% of testing Andy referred to. If these batteries survive one summer with no more degradation than our northern friends, I won't need any further convincing.
 
thankyouOB said:
...sure, you can survey folks who arent owners and their response will be as nissan suggests, but these are not folks who keep their cars for more than 3-5 years, as many of us do. i have a 1999 volvo t5 with stick that i had detailed yesterday. it has 130k miles on it.
the only cars i have gotten rid of in less than 10 years ever, were either stolen or wrecked. there are lots of folks like me. i get their marketing problem but the survey is bogus.

i expect to have the LEAF for 10 years, if i can keep the range at a useable figure. i would be unlikely to lease a battery to do so.
I hadn't thought about it before, but I've never kept a car for less than ten years either. My LEAF replaced an '86 VW Golf that had a fatal encounter with a deer at more than 230k miles; bought it new in 1985. My current ICE car is a '96 that I bought used in '99; it is barely into middle age for a car by my standards.

So, yes, I was hoping to keep the LEAF for a long time, including a battery change. I think that TickTock's report from the meeting last night is quite encouraging. But, perhaps, I am being naive.
 
Some other notes from last night about the Battery replacements:

- Nissan is spending 70% of its R&D dollars on two areas: ZeroEmission (EV) and Autonomous Driving
- 22 Replacements have been initiated so far under the Warranty program. I believe that is counting the replacements pending and the ones completed. All of them are in hotter climates.
- If your battery is replaced before the new 'Hot Battery' (Andy's nickname) becomes available, you will be provided with a coupon to change to that battery, and the coupon is good for 5 years.
- Nissan knows (through Carwings) whether a car's battery health is trending. I think we already knew this, but I was impressioned that they are indeed paying attention to it.
- There are other battery chemistries being developed beyond Lithium Ion.
- The Battery Price survey indicated that even prices in the 5-8K (from memory, correct me if I'm wrong) range were unacceptable to the current and potential drivers.
 
phxsmiley said:
But as was said earlier, it's not quantititve to aske lessees about battery pack pricing. You need to ONLY ask that question of purchasers to get valid data. And narrowing it down even more...purchasers who are likely to hold for an extended period.

I just realized that people who own for a shorter period would need to know for reasons of resale value. So I'm backtracking from that last comment.
 
A couple of my notes from last night:

More range is a function of cost, they can't add range without raising the price. (Yet)

They are going to launch a battery renting program next year, it will be based on their Renault program and it will be similar to Smart US program.
They understand the need for for teirs and options.
They also understand the need for an exit strategy. If you buy the car and rent the battery, how do you ever sell the car? (I actually think that will just work itself out in the marketplace)
The rental program details are still being worked out. (Very few details yet). I think they will monitor MNL for customer expectations on this program.

80% of Leafs sell as a lease. The conversion from lease to purchase is 4x higher than other Nissan vehicles. (I wonder how much of that has to do with the 7.5k tax credit?)
 
BBrockman said:
I'm still here, and do plan to provide some updates on a number of topics from the information discussed this evening.

Thank you letting us know that you are still here.

Will your update be some time today, some time tomorrow or some time in the spring ?
 
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