questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

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cwerdna

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,674
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
I've gotten a bit tired of people complaining about short range and having to go back/forth, esp. when some of the posters vanish or don't answer many of our questions. Since I don't have a Leaf, I don't know what is exactly relevant or not to ask.

I created one for Priuschat for FE complaints at http://priuschat.com/threads/fuel-economy-complaints-queries-please-copy-paste-answer-these-questions-esp-if-youre-new.77074/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which became a sticky.

Over there, I got so tired of trying to help people complaining of "poor" mileage who provide scant or no info. I found myself asking usually a whole bunch of (the same) questions over and over, only to either have them spoon feed a couple answers or worse, have them never return to Priuschat. I'd also noticed lots of people spending time to also ask questions, guess as to the OP's situation, etc. which also IMHO, a waste of time and futile, if the OP doesn't return.

Discuss what you think should go in a simple questionnaire and at least gives us something to go on and can let the complainer know things like: you're driving too fast, that's normal, something is way wrong, you're driving it wrong, you're calculating/estimating wrong, that's actually really good, etc.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261466#p261466" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was my stab at it:
- Miles/kwh? From where are you reading this?
- Speeds?
- Elevation changes?
- How are you using the HVAC system?
- Temps?
- Gid count at 100% charge? Date and outside temp when taken?
- How are you "determining" your range? (e.g. driving down to some value on the GOM, driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW, VLBW or turtle)
- How full are you charging to?
- How many capacity bars have you lost?
Maybe something along the lines of starting # of fuel bars? # of fuel bars at end of trip/commute?

Tony proposed a test at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261496#p261496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which I think maybe should be stickied too and used as a followup, if needed.

I'd really like a Leaf owner/lessee to own the questionnaire though.

March 2013 edit: My current running revision of the questionnaire is at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11591&p=275421#p275421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I'll probably just keep updating that post, based on suggestions. I would really like a Leaf owner to own the "final" questionnaire though since I don't have a Leaf yet.
 
TonyWilliams said:
The first question needs to be "Where are you?" and "Where are you traveling to?" and "Via what route?"
Fair enough... although some folks might not want to reveal all that, for privacy reasons. On Priuschat, for FE complaints, we usually don't have to ask all that... just a general area is enough.

I realize the temps, route and elevation changes can make a significant difference but it might be enough to ask about the routes/drives vs. revealing such specifics.
 
cwerdna said:
TonyWilliams said:
The first question needs to be "Where are you?" and "Where are you traveling to?" and "Via what route?"
Fair enough... although some folks might not want to reveal all that, for privacy reasons. On Priuschat, for FE complaints, we usually don't have to ask all that... just a general area is enough.

I realize the temps, route and elevation changes can make a significant difference but it might be enough to ask about the routes/drives vs. revealing such specifics.


Obviously, I don't quite get all the secrecy when we are talking about cars. We don't need somebody's home address, or their name, or anything identifying them.

But we do need to know just what I asked, and I personally wouldn't spend a lot of time helping anybody who feels that giving the town they live in is too much.
 
Is the vehicle garaged or sitting outside for extended periods of time? If garaged, average temps inside garage while vehicle is inside.

Tire pressure?

What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? Is it reset for every trip?
 
Cwerdna...maybe

"can this experience be reliably repeated?" - once is an aberration, multiple is something we can test
"after how many months of ownership did you first experience the range loss?" - aka is this a new user or experienced? I would take Phil and Tony's opinions over mine any day
"did you buy the vehicle new or used?" - we're going to be seeing a lot more new used car owners i expect which will mean more information about the battery may be needed.

and in the case of a one time deal maybe why? you know like dear mr nytime reporter why did you ignore the low battery light on the tesla? sometimes the why makes everything else understandable. you know, like why did you print off the email? oh, to read it later, i get it...NOT (yes, I had a co-worker print emails to read later)

btw, I totally agree with Tony about location.
 
vrwl said:
What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? Is it reset for every trip?
On this note, IIRC, it's been established that the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh reading is the one to look at, right? I remember hearing that CarWings was a liar and used to be way off. Not sure about now...
 
cwerdna said:
vrwl said:
What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? Is it reset for every trip?
On this note, IIRC, it's been established that the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh reading is the one to look at, right? I remember hearing that CarWings was a liar and used to be way off. Not sure about now...
With the exception of some older cars that may need a firmware update, the console (Carwings) mileage efficiency meter reads about 0.1 mile/kWh higher than the dash one. The difference isn't significant for diagnosing range problems.
 
^^^
Interesting. Thanks!

Anyone have any more? Anyone want to volunteer to compile/craft all the questions and own it? I can take a stab at better questions based on feedback so far, but not owning a Leaf yet doesn't make the best person to own it, in case there need to be updates/refinements.

What I read at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=268304#p268304" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was disturbing but also makes me wonder what % of Leaf owners/lessees are just as clueless, esp. given the stories about BS dealers are feeding some folks. I posted a reply that needs to be approved but it seems that didn't happen. But, that thread seems like it's in the wrong area anyway.

I can think of at least person (w/o naming names) who has posted here in the past who didn't seem to understand the GOM and at least two people who have posted range complaints where it was difficult or impossible to get the info out of them that we needed...
 
dgpcolorado said:
cwerdna said:
vrwl said:
What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? Is it reset for every trip?
On this note, IIRC, it's been established that the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh reading is the one to look at, right? I remember hearing that CarWings was a liar and used to be way off. Not sure about now...
With the exception of some older cars that may need a firmware update, the console (Carwings) mileage efficiency meter reads about 0.1 mile/kWh higher than the dash one. The difference isn't significant for diagnosing range problems.

Actually, though both reset at different rates as you drive, I think Dash m/kWh multiplied by the the same common CW odometer error of ~2.5 % will always match the Nav screen, so the difference between the two usually shows as 0.2 m/kWh, when your m/kWh exceed ~6 m/KWh.

If you look at your CW records, you will probably find that the ~2.5% understatement of miles driven divided by the CW reported kWh use always reproduces the m/kWh shown on your dash.

The correct Nav screen m/kWh report is the correct dash odometer miles divided by the correct (perhaps) CW kWh consumption numbers.

At least it always has been so for my LEAF...
 
^^^
For the sake of simplicity and having everyone being on the same page, is having them reset and report the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh value sufficient?

Is this what most Leafers use and thus be a good basis of comparison?
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
For the sake of simplicity and having everyone being on the same page, is having them reset and report the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh value sufficient?

Is this what most Leafers use and thus be a good basis of comparison?

That is what I always recommend. It simple, and it's right in front of you. The Range Chart is based on this value.
 
sorry reading this from phone but have you started a questionnaire yet? if so, did not see it.

but i would start with the basics

where do you live?
how far is your daily commute?
any geography comments, terrain, hills, excessive wind?
how much do you use the heat?
how fast do you drive?

do you practice any hypermiling techniques? such

greater following distances
anticipating traffic and or lights
driving slower, etc
 
LEAF Range Data Run


Checklist before the data collecting run:

1. (your answer) Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, etc)
2. (your answer) Tire pressures set, heater and air conditioning off, car at 100% charge, cells allowed time to balance
3. (your answer) Gross vehicle weight? 3350 pounds plus operator, passengers, spare tire, bags, concrete, etc
4. (your answer) Route, length, elevation, hills if any, general conditions (dry, concrete/asphalt, etc)
5. (your answer) Assumed or measured battery temp (from LEAFscan tool)
6. (your answer) Ambient air temp
7. (your answer) Gid count at start, if available
8. (your answer) SOC, if available (from LEAFscan)
9. (your answer) Starting total voltage (should be 393.5v from GidMeter or LEAFscan tools)
10. (your answer) Accept CarWings on Nav screen startup by pressing OK

Data to record:

1. (your answer) Outbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
2. (your answer) Outbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
3. (your answer) Inbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
4. (your answer) Inbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
5. (your answer) Miles at Low Battery Warning
6. (your answer) Miles at Very Low Battery
7. (your answer) Overall miles covered to Turtle
8. (your answer) Overall miles/kWh from dash economy display
9. (your answer) Calculated battery useable energy (miles / miles/kWh = battery kWh)
10.(your answer) Ending pack voltage, SOC, and Gid (350v-ish from GidMeter or LEAFscan tools)
 
cwerdna said:
vrwl said:
What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? Is it reset for every trip?
On this note, IIRC, it's been established that the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh reading is the one to look at, right? I remember hearing that CarWings was a liar and used to be way off. Not sure about now...

Based on everything I've read here in the past 8 months, I'd say yes, the dash.

TonyWilliams said:
1. (your answer) Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, etc)

LOL on the horns!
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
sorry reading this from phone but have you started a questionnaire yet? if so, did not see it.
I had an initial stab at it in the 1st post. Sorry, haven't had a chance to compile and come up with better questions. Others are welcome and encouraged to do so and own it.

Tony's post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=268613#p268613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; looks like a good template for a range test, but I don't think it's a good starting point for a range complaint. Range test can come later, if needed.

Re: the changes to the car, those are all valid questions. Haha about the horns. I've seen some folks in the East Bay have flags of their favorite sports teams jutting out the window. That will definitely increase drag.
 
Ok, here's my a stab on the questions. I'm going to edit my 1st post to point to this one, w/the current questions.

- Where are you?
- Where are you traveling to? Via what route?

If unwilling to answer the above, you'll need to tell us the distances and whether there's any net elevation change (Google Earth can help you with that. See http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-house-pancakes/100653-google-earth-can-give-you-elevation-profile-route-between-2-points.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.).

- How fast are you driving? What % is city vs. highway?
- What is your miles/kWh reading on the dash? (on the black and white display) Is it reset for every trip? If not, please do so.
- How full are you charging to? (for '13+ Leafs, list the % state of charge value)
- How are you "determining" your range? Examples: driving down to some value on the GOM (guess-o-meter aka virtually worthless "distance to empty" display), driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW (Low Battery Warning), VLBW (Very Low Battery Warning) or turtle, driving down to a certain # of gids, driving down to a certain % state of charge (SoC) value ('13+ Leaf only)
- How many temperature bars (left side) are shown at the start of the drive and during?
- What are your cold tire pressures?
- Can this experience be reliably repeated?
- After how many months of ownership did you first experience the range loss?
- Outside air temps when this is happening?
- How are you using the heater/AC system?
- When cold, are you using the heated seats and steering wheel?
- Did you buy the vehicle new or used and when? (month and year is enough) What model year is it?
- How many capacity bars have you lost? They're the thin bars on the very right of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. That one shows 3 capacity bars lost.
- Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, roof rack, flags, etc)?
- (If you have a gid meter) Gid count at 100% charge? Date and outside temp when taken?

If unclear about some of the terminology/acronyms (e.g. GOM, LBW), see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Glossary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
 
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