Cutting it close too often. Merry Xmas !

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Thought I would mention that my car took 18.5 hours on L1 to get to full charge today. I guess that's approximately 18.5 kWh recharged.

Carwings shows I drove 63.6 miles on 12/24 and 18.5 kWh used. Energy economy was 3.2 miles/kWh. That is the same as my average energy economy for December. It's still better than the 2.9 EPA. Yet I'm clearly not getting 73 miles out of the battery.

That Carwings data for 12/24 does not exactly match the journey I reported at the beginning of this thread.

1) It includes one additional 13 miles trip from home to work, before I recharged at work.

I probably drove less efficiently on the way to work because I can charge on L2 for free at work and I knew I would get a full charge there for sure. Though I may not have had the heat on for that trip. Hard to say.

2) It's missing the return trip at 2am, as that is dated 12/25 .
I should see it in Carwings tomorrow since I didn't take the Leaf out today.

I wish Carwings let us look at the individual data for every trip, and not just the daily averages.
 
madbrain said:
cwerdna said:
How about using heated seats more, instead of the cabin heater?

I have been using the heated seats since winter started, but that's just not enough for me, my body gets generally cold.

It can be a useful supplement. For example I can be fully comfortable at 62F if I use the steering wheel heat and seat heater. This requires a lot less energy than running the main heat at 72.
 
I think the heater did you in. I don't believe I've gotten more than 50 miles on a charge since the weather turned cold, even though I usually hold my speed down to 60. My wife insists on having the heater on all the time (and we have no heated seats on our 2011). Another thing to watch out for is windshield defogging. It is tempting just to push the front defrost button, but San Jose weather is almost never cold enough to need that, and it cranks the heater up all the way even if you are in ECO. You may be using the center console for other things, but do switch it occasionally to the Energy Usage screen and pay particular attention to the climate control pie chart. When that cranks up, even to 1.5, it starts eating mileage like you wouldn't believe.

Ray
 
Nubo said:
madbrain said:
cwerdna said:
How about using heated seats more, instead of the cabin heater?

I have been using the heated seats since winter started, but that's just not enough for me, my body gets generally cold.

It can be a useful supplement. For example I can be fully comfortable at 62F if I use the steering wheel heat and seat heater. This requires a lot less energy than running the main heat at 72.

I do use the heated seats, but I find they don't suffice. My partner does not like heated seats also. And he was wearing less clothing than I was.
We have chronic medical conditions that make it unadvisable not to use the heater when it's cold.
 
Ray,

planet4ever said:
I think the heater did you in. I don't believe I've gotten more than 50 miles on a charge since the weather turned cold, even though I usually hold my speed down to 60. My wife insists on having the heater on all the time (and we have no heated seats on our 2011). Another thing to watch out for is windshield defogging. It is tempting just to push the front defrost button, but San Jose weather is almost never cold enough to need that, and it cranks the heater up all the way even if you are in ECO. You may be using the center console for other things, but do switch it occasionally to the Energy Usage screen and pay particular attention to the climate control pie chart. When that cranks up, even to 1.5, it starts eating mileage like you wouldn't believe.

Thanks, I didn't know the defogger would bring up the heater energy usage to the max. I was using it for most of the trip, not sure if all of it. Definitely for the return trip. The temperature dropped a little at 2am.
I only turn on the defogger when I actually see fog forming on the windshield while driving. It's more often than you would think, but I tend to be driving out late.
 
madbrain said:
cwerdna said:
I know DaveinOlyWA has posted about using http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-rubberized-heater-with-fan-96144.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I don't recall if he still uses it/finds it useful. Maybe dig around for his posts, possibly w/the help of Google?

I noticed the reviews are pretty awful on that thing about heat output and product quality.
Yeah, sorry, I don't have any experience with it. Perhaps I will whenever I finally get a Leaf. The posts below reference it. Perhaps you can PM DaveinOlyWA to have him point you to other posts about it or to ask his opinion of it?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10626&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10463&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can only pull so much amperage at 12 volts before you blow the fuse associated w/the cigarette lighter.
madbrain said:
I do use the heated seats, but I find they don't suffice. My partner does not like heated seats also. And he was wearing less clothing than I was.
We have chronic medical conditions that make it unadvisable not to use the heater when it's cold.
Hmmm... sounds like you both ought to use heated seats to avoid having to use the heater much and you'll need to bundle up if you need more range and are taking the Leaf. :)

Heck, I don't use the furnace much here at home as I live alone... so it can drop to as low as 50 to 55 F at night. I wear a sweater or sweatshirt + 2 jackets at home.
 
Madbrain, it sounds like you'll do fine with the Leaf when you can plan your trips, dress more warmly and use heated seats to minimize use of the heater, but when you're driving with your partner, you really can't do any of that. Your best bet is probably to use the Prius by default when your partner is with you unless you know it will be a very short trip. If one of those short trips should turn into a long trip, you might suggest "let's go home and get the prius". Wondering if you'll make it home before the battery dies is a very uncomfortable feeling.
 
madbrain said:
Ray,

planet4ever said:
I think the heater did you in. I don't believe I've gotten more than 50 miles on a charge since the weather turned cold, even though I usually hold my speed down to 60. My wife insists on having the heater on all the time (and we have no heated seats on our 2011). Another thing to watch out for is windshield defogging. It is tempting just to push the front defrost button, but San Jose weather is almost never cold enough to need that, and it cranks the heater up all the way even if you are in ECO. You may be using the center console for other things, but do switch it occasionally to the Energy Usage screen and pay particular attention to the climate control pie chart. When that cranks up, even to 1.5, it starts eating mileage like you wouldn't believe.

Thanks, I didn't know the defogger would bring up the heater energy usage to the max. I was using it for most of the trip, not sure if all of it. Definitely for the return trip. The temperature dropped a little at 2am.
I only turn on the defogger when I actually see fog forming on the windshield while driving. It's more often than you would think, but I tend to be driving out late.

Gotta agree, the heater/defog did you in. I get close to 80 miles on the interstate at 60 mph, but if I decide it's too cold or I've got a quick charger or two along the way I'll use the heater and I seem to get about 50 miles per charge with that setup. I don't like having cold feet, so I'm looking for a simple solution to that part of it (didn't get any wool socks for Christmas :cry: )

When I'm traveling ,I will cycle the defog on & off if worried about range. Climate control defaults to fresh air coming in when you turn defog off, so you have to change it to recirculate for cold air not to come into the cabin. If there's a way for this not to happen, someone please chime in.

BTW, I hit LBW on Christmas-Eve but I just stopped by a quick charge for about 5 minutes, so I didn't have to stress about it for the last 15 miles home.

Philip
 
Well you made it so you did ok. as far as taking the Prius? you made it so no worries.

** the 12 volt heater would not work for you. its a personal heater at best. I used to put it in my lap and try to aim it so it blew warm air up under my coat. for two people, it just does not put out enough heat. but does work great for one person. best part, its very warm but not so hot to burn someone or be uncomfortably hot.

** you dont have an L-2 at home? an hour on L-2 would have only left you more "in the tank" when you got home but also a bit more peace of mind.

** because of child and "cold sensitive" partner, always have blanket in car (along with water and other basics) might not be bad idea

I think you will be fine. unlike many, you have enough wits about you to know when you need to start conserving range. there are too many posts here that start "i was bee-bopping along at mile 59 of my 65 mile journey when I realized i might not make it..."

the GID meter is helpful for range prediction. now the way I do it (and the system is not perfect by any means) is know how far I am going. then monitor my performance thru out the trip. I would rather slow down 3-5 mph at mile 10 then mile 59 where i might be forced to slow down 20 mph or when its going to be too late and the GID meter allows me to do that.

for example, i take off in morning on 75 mile trip (actually done recently) I know that is just about my winter range. I record my starting GID # and reset trip meter so after 10 miles i will check my performance by determining how many GID's per mile i am burning thru. My policy is that 10 GID (just before Turtle) is empty

i take this data along with rough estimates on upcoming terrain, etc. to be able to extrapolate my range. if after 10 miles I am project to go 74 miles, then i slow it down whatever it takes to get me to at least a 2-3 mile buffer. after I get that buffer, i spot check it every 10 miles or so to make sure I am on track. Like I said, not perfect but the sooner you start to address range, the more options you have.
 
madbrain said:
Thought I would mention that my car took 18.5 hours on L1 to get to full charge today. I guess that's approximately 18.5 kWh recharged.

Carwings shows I drove 63.6 miles on 12/24 and 18.5 kWh used. Energy economy was 3.2 miles/kWh. That is the same as my average energy economy for December. It's still better than the 2.9 EPA. Yet I'm clearly not getting 73 miles out of the battery.

Based on both pieces of information, I'd say your battery is about 19.5kWh usable (versus 21kWh for the EPA 73 mile rating at 3.476 miles/kWh without heater). I'm not sure why we care what the EPA range is; it only matters what your car is doing, and I suspect your car is "Nissan Normal(TM)".

That means you probably already have some measure of PERMANENT degradation, in addition to losses from whatever temperature the battery was at. It is normal for this to equal 10-15% (or more) total battery capacity loss for your trip within one or two years. My second LEAF lost 10% permanent degradation within 4 months.

If your trip was 3.2 miles/kWh, multiplied by 19.5kWh equals 62.4 miles. I suspect your economy from the dash was slightly higher, or 3.4/3.5 range, which equals the 66 mile total range of your trip. You can't increase the battery capacity without warming the battery up, but you can increase economy by not running the heater and SLOWING down on the freeway. There is a big difference between 55mph and 65mph.

65mph = 4.0mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 78 miles (big difference without the heater)
55mph = 4.4mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 85.8 miles (big difference over 65mph)
50mph = 4.8mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 93.6 miles (huge difference over 65mph)

So, you could even run the heater as you like, but just slow to 55mph on the freeway for the same trip, and get a substantial increase in range. And get that 240v plug in your garage.
 
madbrain said:
I do use the heated seats, but I find they don't suffice. My partner does not like heated seats also. And he was wearing less clothing than I was.
We have chronic medical conditions that make it unadvisable not to use the heater when it's cold.
It's not that they suffice, but they will allow you to remain comfortable with somewhat less cabin heating,all else being equal. Everyone's tolerance for cold is different, of course. Dressing warmly is another way to reduce the amount of cabin heat you need to stay comfortable. Depends on the accommodations you and your partner willing or able to make. I'm not prescribing a solution, just trying to illustrate the options since cabin heating was a major cause of your reduced range and using seat heating and/or dressing warmly can mitigate that somewhat. If your partner is either unwilling or unable to do either, then it sounds like you have a good option in the Prius.

Best wishes.
 
madbrain said:
cwerdna said:
I know DaveinOlyWA has posted about using http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-rubberized-heater-with-fan-96144.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I don't recall if he still uses it/finds it useful. Maybe dig around for his posts, possibly w/the help of Google?
I noticed the reviews are pretty awful on that thing about heat output and product quality.
I purchase this, even with the lousy reviews, just to give it a try. You just need to remember, that 15Ax12V=180W or less than two 100 W light bulbs. Using gorilla glue, I mounted mine under the glovebox, for a semi-permanent installation. It works fairly well as an "auxiliary" passenger only heat source, mostly keeping the feet warm. I bought it for a 60 mi RT winter (32 F) trip that would have been very unpleasant without heat. We ended up charging L1 for an hour at dinner and that gave us the extra charge to blast the heat on the way home.

Yes, sounds like a stressful trip and you will definitely need to "plan" more with the Leaf than the Prius. Still, with planning and getting used to how the car consumes electricity, you will be able to adjust the speed and always arrive home with "just enough".
Reddy
 
philipscoggins said:
madbrain said:
When I'm traveling ,I will cycle the defog on & off if worried about range. Climate control defaults to fresh air coming in when you turn defog off, so you have to change it to recirculate for cold air not to come into the cabin. If there's a way for this not to happen, someone please chime in.
Here's what I'be found: if you have climate control "off" and re-circulation set, you can simply press the front defogger button to turn it on and if you press it again, it returns to CC off, re-circulate. However, if you change any settings while the defogger is on, this will not work and you end up with CC on.
 
madbrain said:
Thought I would mention that my car took 18.5 hours on L1 to get to full charge today. I guess that's approximately 18.5 kWh recharged.

Carwings shows I drove 63.6 miles on 12/24 and 18.5 kWh used. Energy economy was 3.2 miles/kWh.

Actually I must correct this : the average was 3.4 miles/kWh for 12/24 .

I just got the data for the last trip on 12/25 :

13.9 miles at 3.1 miles/kWh . Consumption of 4.4 kWh . Travel time 0.4 hours.
This was the stretch that I drove from the theater to home at 2am, limiting freeway speed to 50 mph.
Obviously the heat was on as well as defogger, and it included the steep hill at the end. But I was driving in ECO and with cruise control on the freeway.
Guess the combo of heat + hill is a really lethal one.

TonyWilliams said:
50mph = 4.8mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 93.6 miles (huge difference over 65mph)

I got 3.1 miles/kWh average with the heater on, and the uphill. There was about 10 miles of freeway at 50mph and under 4miles of city streets at lower speeds.
So unfortunately the 4.8 miles/kWh number on flat/no heat at 50mph is not very meaningful when the heater and uphill have that much impact on the energy usage.
 
TonyWilliams said:
65mph = 4.0mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 78 miles (big difference without the heater)
55mph = 4.4mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 85.8 miles (big difference over 65mph)
50mph = 4.8mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 93.6 miles (huge difference over 65mph)

Thanks, Tony. These are all good to know, but without accounting for hills and heat it is unfortunately not very useful. Those really bring the averages down quite a bit.

I just looked at my Carwings data for the month of December. I only have one day where I exceeded 4 miles/kWh average.

That was Dec 6 . I only drove 12.9 miles. 4.2 miles/kWh. My guess is this was probably downhill 1-way commute to work only and no heat.
Some days I work from home and I frequently come home after midnight when I commute, hence low number of miles for that day.

My average for December is 3.2 miles/kWh.

Worst day was last sunday, december 23. Only 4.1 miles, late night roundtrip to the nearest grocery store with the heat and defogger on.
Average 2.3 miles/kWh . Top speed was probably 35 mph, and no freeway involved.
 
madbrain said:
TonyWilliams said:
65mph = 4.0mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 78 miles (big difference without the heater)
55mph = 4.4mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 85.8 miles (big difference over 65mph)
50mph = 4.8mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 93.6 miles (huge difference over 65mph)

Thanks, Tony. These are all good to know, but without accounting for hills and heat it is unfortunately not very useful. Those really bring the averages down quite a bit.

I just looked at my Carwings data for the month of December. I only have one day where I exceeded 4 miles/kWh average.

That was Dec 6 . I only drove 12.9 miles. 4.2 miles/kWh. My guess is this was probably downhill 1-way commute to work only and no heat.
Some days I work from home and I frequently come home after midnight when I commute, hence low number of miles for that day.

My average for December is 3.2 miles/kWh.

Worst day was last sunday, december 23. Only 4.1 miles, late night roundtrip to the nearest grocery store with the heat and defogger on.
Average 2.3 miles/kWh . Top speed was probably 35 mph, and no freeway involved.

do you normally park in a garage? because it does not sound like it. you might want to try to toggle defrost on for only as long as it takes to clear the glass and take advice from someone who lives with 6+ months of 99% humidity EVERY morning. get yourself a decent squeegee with at least a 3 foot handle.

I come out from work and have moisture on my windows so thick that it takes a good 5 minutes of defrost on high fan to even begin to clear the glass. I found it to be a much better use of my time and battery to turn on defrost, swipe the windows so I can see and take off.

Yes, I have to swipe every minute or two driving down the road and you might want to practice that in a parking lot first or have a passenger do it for you. dont take chances but I find that this helps a ton.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
do you normally park in a garage?

My car is always in the garage when at home since that's where I charge it.
I don't need to turn on the defogger right away, I just drive off. I only turn it on when fog starts to form on the windshield.

because it does not sound like it. you might want to try to toggle defrost on for only as long as it takes to clear the glass and take advice from someone who lives with 6+ months of 99% humidity EVERY morning. get yourself a decent squeegee with at least a 3 foot handle.

When at work, my car is in an open parking lot. Sometimes it does take a few minutes with the defogger to clear up the windshield late at night. The humidity is not close to 99% here though.
 
madbrain said:
TonyWilliams said:
65mph = 4.0mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 78 miles (big difference without the heater)
55mph = 4.4mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 85.8 miles (big difference over 65mph)
50mph = 4.8mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 93.6 miles (huge difference over 65mph)

Thanks, Tony. These are all good to know, but without accounting for hills and heat it is unfortunately not very useful. Those really bring the averages down quite a bit.

Actually, it is relevant. If you had only slowed down (and did nothing else) for the entire trip (but mostly the freeway part), whether there were hills or not, you would have increased your range in approximately a percentage of the above.

Instead of coming home with X miles left, it would have been X + a bunch of miles.
 
TonyWilliams said:
madbrain said:
TonyWilliams said:
65mph = 4.0mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 78 miles (big difference without the heater)
55mph = 4.4mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 85.8 miles (big difference over 65mph)
50mph = 4.8mile/kWh without a heater * 19.5 = 93.6 miles (huge difference over 65mph)

Thanks, Tony. These are all good to know, but without accounting for hills and heat it is unfortunately not very useful. Those really bring the averages down quite a bit.

Actually, it is relevant. If you had only slowed down (and did nothing else) for the entire trip (but mostly the freeway part), whether there were hills or not, you would have increased your range in approximately a percentage of the above.

Instead of coming home with X miles left, it would have been X + a bunch of miles.

If you look in my first post, you will see that I slowed down to 55 and 50 for 2 of the freeway trips I reported. Even for the slowest 50 mph trip, it was determined through Carwings that the average was only 3.1 miles/kWh, not 4.8 . So, what I am saying is that the other factors - the uphill and the heater - trump the speed in terms of energy consumption with the Leaf.

I honestly don't think I could have ended up with too many more miles left at the end by slowing down. I already slowed down for the last 2 trips, as low as was reasonable to drive on a freeway. Slowing down below 65 for the first trip would have meant less L1 charging afterwards. Slowing down below 65 for the second trip might have meant missing dinner. It seems turning off the heat completely would have had a much larger impact on the energy consumption.
 
When it's in the single digits here my heater uses around 3kw to maintain the cabin on auto. San Jose isn't that cold so you should use less. The difference between the 4.8 you should have seen and the 3.1 you saw indicates a very high heater draw. Is it so hilly that the hills explain away the difference? Or perhaps your heat is on max because of the defog instead of auto?

For example my commute is 60-65 mph and 3kw heater and I average 3.1m/kwh.
 
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