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keydiver said:
Zythryn said:
And this talk of "limits" on the base model?? Do you consider Leather seats restricted because they don't offer it on a base model of any particular car manufacturer?
Limited colors? Seriously? How are the colors on the base model 'limited'.

I never mentioned leather seats. :roll: Again, I am referring to the "$50,000 luxury electric car" that Musk keeps touting. For $50,000 (after $7500 rebate) you only get 2 choices in paint colors, white or black, NON-metallic. This is going by memory, as I haven't looked at the options for a LONG time, but any "pretty" metallic colored paints were at an additional charge.
The limited color choices are still the case, unless you pay extra, regardless of the battery capacity chosen. The metallic and multi-coat choices are more $.

And that "$50K" car after tax credits is now about to be $52.4K for starters, after tax credit, but before tax, license and (I believe) delivery/destination charge.
 
mitch672 said:
They are trying to capture %2 of the luxury car market, thats over 1,000,000 cars/year, if they can capture 20,000 cars/year of that market, for the next 2-3 years, they will be a success, and will be able to make it long term. and thats what's its all about for Tesla, right now.
The 1M cars a year "luxury" market starts at some 35k. S essentially starts at some $65k. That market is a lot smaller than 1M.
 
cwerdna said:
keydiver said:
Zythryn said:
And this talk of "limits" on the base model?? Do you consider Leather seats restricted because they don't offer it on a base model of any particular car manufacturer?
Limited colors? Seriously? How are the colors on the base model 'limited'.

I never mentioned leather seats. :roll: Again, I am referring to the "$50,000 luxury electric car" that Musk keeps touting. For $50,000 (after $7500 rebate) you only get 2 choices in paint colors, white or black, NON-metallic. This is going by memory, as I haven't looked at the options for a LONG time, but any "pretty" metallic colored paints were at an additional charge.
The limited color choices are still the case, unless you pay extra, regardless of the battery capacity chosen. The metallic and multi-coat choices are more $.

And that "$50K" car after tax credits is now about to be $52.4K for starters, after tax credit, but before tax, license and (I believe) delivery/destination charge.

BMW M3 and Mercedes E class both offer 2 colors at no up charge. I really think people are stretching here to find a reason not to like the car.

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/build/class-E/model-E550W4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/byo/byohome.aspx?namodelcode=133h" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is par for the course for car companies to offer options and charge for those options.
If you don't want to pay more than the base price, great, order the base car. If you think options should be free, wonderful, good luck with that.

And yes, for people who don't place their reservation by Jan 1, the price is going up. That it pretty common in any industry for cost of goods to increase over time.

And yes, I would love to see level 2 and super chargers scattered across the planet. Tesla is making some available at their own expense, but only for the middle and large size packs. I am sorry they didn't make them free for everyone and put one on every street corner, but do you really expect a company to do that all on their own dime?
 
Zythryn said:
BMW M3 and Mercedes E class both offer 2 colors at no up charge. I really think people are stretching here to find a reason not to like the car.

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/build/class-E/model-E550W4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/byo/byohome.aspx?namodelcode=133h" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is par for the course for car companies to offer options and charge for those options.
If you don't want to pay more than the base price, great, order the base car. If you think options should be free, wonderful, good luck with that.
Interesting... this sorta goes with how it seems like some German automakers charge/nickel and dime for everything. I've had no interest ever buying or leasing any German car but I'd heard that from others who'd looked. Until now, I'd never heard of cars where most of the color choices cost extra. I'd only seen some where a couple choices cost extra (e.g. Blizzard Pearl on Toyotas).

Back when I got my former 02 Nissan Maxima GXE (lowest trim), it came w/plenty of standard stuff (which tended to be extra cost on many cars in 01) like AC, HID headlights, steering wheel audio controls, power seat, cruise control, and alloy wheels.

I also considered an 02 Acura 3.2 TL. There were a whopping 4 choices in their matrix in total: non-Type S and Type S, with or w/o nav. There were no other options (other than maybe stuff like floor mats). On EVERY TL, they ALL came w/standard heated and power leather seats (w/memory, I think), sunroof, CD changer, HID headlights, alloy wheels, traction control (not sure about stability control), cruise control, steering wheel audio controls, auto climate control, wood grain (probably fake) interior, and so on. I'm 99% positive that competing German cars made most of that stuff optional.

edit: I just checked for the (regular) Prius, for example and for models Two thru Five (Persona is some new trim for '13 that I'm unfamiliar with), the same 6 basic colors are available on every trim from Two thru Five (Two being the base, One is fleet only and not easily available to consumers, Five is highest). The only extra cost color is the $395 Blizzard Pearl choice, which is broken out as a "premium" color.
 
evnow said:
The 1M cars a year "luxury" market starts at some 35k. S essentially starts at some $65k. That market is a lot smaller than 1M.
Well stated.

Zythryn said:
I am sorry they didn't make them free for everyone and put one on every street corner, but do you really expect a company to do that all on their own dime?
teslamnl


You raise some good points, and I don't want to argue this on behalf of other posters, since they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. That said, I believe this did not come out right. Most people realize that quick charging costs money. Personally, I did not expect Tesla to make it free, but I agree that it's a great sales tool for their premium trims, and I think I will renew my deposit before the year-end deadline.

The point being, the base model is orphaned in this regard; it can't quick charge anywhere, for any money, since it does not come with this option. It's similar to Nissan's decision to only offer the QC port on SL trims. It's their right to do so, but it might have other implications, and limit the addressable market size. I wish Tesla all the best, and I believe that they are executing well against their strategy. I can also empathize with folks who feel that the S is not for them given this situation, and they might have to wait a while to see how it all shakes out. As someone recently said: we are ready for EVs, but they are not necessarily ready for us.
 
surfingslovak said:
...
You raise some good points, and I don't want to argue this on behalf of other posters, since they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. That said, I believe this did not come out right. Most people realize that quick charging costs money. Personally, I did not expect Tesla to make it free, but I agree that it's a great sales tool for their premium trims, and I think I will renew my deposit before the year-end deadline.

The point being, the base model is orphaned in this regard; it can't quick charge anywhere, for any money, since it does not come with this option. It's similar to Nissan's decision to only offer the QC port on SL trims. It's their right to do so, but it might have other implications, and limit the addressable market size. I wish Tesla all the best, and I believe that they are executing well against their strategy. I can also empathize with folks who feel that the S is not for them given this situation, and they might have to wait a while to see how it all shakes out. As someone recently said: we are ready for EVs, but they are not necessarily ready for us.

I agree completely. Some things will price some people out of the market. So people that need a 250 mile range but can't afford a $77k (soon $79k) car are priced out of the electric car market, for now.
People that need quick charging and can't afford the $71k or $79k model are priced out of that market.

I am curious how many LEAF owners that have used QC, have done so to allow them to make a trip of 100 or 200 miles?

As others have said, there are a number of factors that went into the decision. One of them was how many QC stations does Tesla need to make a nation wide system and how many can they afford to build? If you are building the system to allow cars that have a range of 208 miles (EPA of 60kW car), and you build in some buffer, you can place a station every 150 miles or so. If you design it for cars with an EPA range of 130-140, and build in the same buffer, you need one every 105-110 miles.
That is a lot more QC stations and frankly, I think is a cost a young car company can't realistically afford.

Nissan or GM on the other hand has the deep pockets, but they are both relying on the public sector and third parties to build out the charging station system. I understand why, there are a lot of choices where they simply can't win (someone will always complain).
 
Zy, I drove 140 miles RT using the new GoE3 QC. Now, I'll be able to drive down to Tucson which is over 200 miles RT. :mrgreen:
 
Zythryn said:
I am curious how many LEAF owners that have used QC, have done so to allow them to make a trip of 100 or 200 miles?
I've made a pretty substantial number of 100-200 mile trips aided by QC. Earlier this month we drove ~270 miles in one day, aided by two QCs. Itinerary: Arrowbear Lake->Rancho Cucamonga(destination,L2)->Oceanside(next destination,L2)->San Juan Capistrano(QC)->Diamond Bar(QC)->Redlands(L2)->Arrowbear Lake. The battery temperature went from four bars to six bars, which isn't bad. The amount of en-route charging, not counting the time in Rancho Cucamonga or Oceanside where we had commitments, was pretty substantial, and hard to do on a regular basis.

Yes, I'd love to have a Tesla S, or even better, a Tesla X with AWD. I'm not spending that kind of money at this time, though.
 
Zythryn said:
I am curious how many LEAF owners that have used QC, have done so to allow them to make a trip of 100 or 200 miles?
Great to be curious, but there must be several LEAF threads where that question is asked/answered. Start a poll, but not in the Tesla Model S thread. :|
 
ebill3 said:
Zythryn said:
I am curious how many LEAF owners that have used QC, have done so to allow them to make a trip of 100 or 200 miles?
Great to be curious, but there must be several LEAF threads where that question is asked/answered. Start a poll, but not in the Tesla Model S thread. :|
Excellent point!
 
Reminiscent of the "lost LEAF order" fiasco over the winter of 2011, when many of us had to wait many months longer than our promised delivery dates, while those who ordered much later, posted on MNL how they received their LEAFs shortly after placing their orders.

When Tesla Motors [NSDQ:TSLA] first started taking reservations (with $5,000 deposits) for its all-electric Model S sports sedan nearly four years ago...

Each depositor was assigned a reservation sequence number, which represented the owner's place in line, and, to a certain extent, his/her status in the pecking order for the award-winning Tesla Model S.

When I put my money down in April 2009, I received number P 717. With the waiting list now approaching 18,000, I'm feeling pretty good about my place in the line to own what by all accounts is a remarkable car.

In addition to the 716 even-earlier-adopters before me, about 1,200 "Signature" customers put down $40,000 deposits for the right to buy special-edition top-of-the-line cars before the standard P cars went into production.

I never begrudged the Signature owners in front of me--they certainly paid dearly for their right to jump the queue.

But now that all Signature cars have been delivered and P cars have been in production for more than a month, it turns out that the Tesla delivery system isn't working nearly as smoothly as your average New York deli.

In many cases, production P cars are being delivered way out of order--sometimes astonishingly so.

This naturally results in equal numbers of customers who are giddy at their unexpected early delivery and frustrated at a maddeningly delayed one.

Count me among the latter.

Just yesterday I saw a post on the Tesla owners' forum from an ecstatic Model S owner who'd just been notified his delivery would be in the first two weeks of February. That's essentially the same delivery window I've been given.

You know when this guy placed his order? Last August 31! That's more than three years after I put down my money. He's number 11,601 in the queue.

"Essentially FIVE MONTHS from order to delivery!" the guy crowed.

He's not alone. A number of cars with numbers above 5,000 have already been delivered. According to the Tesla Motor Club, an unofficial online forum, the highest number delivered as of December 31 was P 9935.

Meanwhile, owners with reservation numbers as low as P 631 have not yet received their cars, according to TMC.

"Reservation holders more than 3500 spots below me have gotten their VIN (a final step just before delivery)," moans one owner on the TMC forum. "Extremely frustrated."

I understand his frustration.

Why should a Johnny-Come-Lately who puts his money down for a few months on a sure thing get his car before a True Believer who gambled $5,000 back when the Model S was a pipe dream and Tesla was a company struggling to even stay alive?

The 85-kWh Advantage

Although there seems to be no rhyme nor reason for many of the out-of-order deliveries, the cause of my delay is clear: I've ordered my car with the mid-size 60-kWh battery.

Because all the initial Signature cars had top-of-the-line 85-kWh batteries, Tesla started production of that battery first. When Signature production finished in late November, Tesla wasn't yet geared up for production of the smaller 60-kWh and 40-kWh battery options.

So it continued to churn out 85-kWh production models, skipping over even low-number 60- and 40-kWh buyers like me...

Tesla has announced that 60-kWh production will begin this month, and 40-kWh production in March. The company seems to be in no particular hurry to do so, and who can blame them?

They'd prefer to sell as many of the more expensive 85-kWh cars as possible, as they try to overcome the cash crunch of production start-up...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1081406_tesla-model-s-delivery-roulette-annoys-some-owners-thrills-others" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
Reminiscent of the "lost LEAF order" fiasco over the winter of 2011, when many of us had to wait many months longer than our promised delivery dates, while those who ordered much later, posted on MNL how they received their LEAFs shortly after placing their orders.
I can understand the frustration of the person that penned the quoted lines, and I am probably one of the line jumpers as I have ordered the 85 kWh battery.

But, didn't Tesla announce early on when production of the various configurations would begin?
 
ebill3 said:
edatoakrun said:
Reminiscent of the "lost LEAF order" fiasco over the winter of 2011, when many of us had to wait many months longer than our promised delivery dates, while those who ordered much later, posted on MNL how they received their LEAFs shortly after placing their orders.
I can understand the frustration of the person that penned the quoted lines, and I am probably one of the line jumpers as I have ordered the 85 kWh battery.

But, didn't Tesla announce early on when production of the various configurations would begin?

Read the whole article, which reports in more detail what was excerpted in the quote above:

...Although there seems to be no rhyme nor reason for many of the out-of-order deliveries, the cause of my delay is clear: I've ordered my car with the mid-size 60-kWh battery...

And I'm not sure I'd have felt a lot better about the delay in my LEAF delivery, if I knew it was due to Nissan intentionally skipping by my order to goose its quarterly earnings report, rather than just the delivery process being FUBAR, as it apparently was...
 
edatoakrun said:
And I'm not sure I'd have felt a lot better about the delay in my LEAF delivery, if I knew it was due to Nissan intentionally skipping by my order to goose its quarterly earnings report, rather than just the delivery process being FUBAR, as it apparently was...

Tesla is not Nissan. If Nissan doesn't sell as many Leafs as expected, they have an entire line of "other" cars to make up the difference. Teslas only production car is the Model S, if they don't make a profit soon, there will be no Tesla. The situations are not even related.
 
edatoakrun said:
Read the whole article, which reports in more detail what was excerpted in the quote above:

...Although there seems to be no rhyme nor reason for many of the out-of-order deliveries, the cause of my delay is clear: I've ordered my car with the mid-size 60-kWh battery...
Well, I did read it. But, my question stands:

Didn't Tesla announce early on when production of the various configurations would begin?
 
ebill3 said:
edatoakrun said:
Reminiscent of the "lost LEAF order" fiasco over the winter of 2011, when many of us had to wait many months longer than our promised delivery dates, while those who ordered much later, posted on MNL how they received their LEAFs shortly after placing their orders.
I can understand the frustration of the person that penned the quoted lines, and I am probably one of the line jumpers as I have ordered the 85 kWh battery.

But, didn't Tesla announce early on when production of the various configurations would begin?

Yes, they did. I also understand his frustration.
But when you are told that the 60kW pack won't start delivery as soon as the 85kW pack, it doesn't matter if you are reservation #2 or #2000, it won't be coming out early.

The article is full of speculation phrased as fact:
They'd prefer to sell as many of the more expensive 85-kWh cars as possible, as they try to overcome the cash crunch of production start-up.

Perhaps Tesla actually has a larger margin with the smaller packs. After all, the batteries are the single most expensive part of the car, right?

Tesla does need better communication and better tracking of which cars are where in production and delivery. They are by no means perfect in the logistics and delivery of the first 'from the ground up' designed, engineered and produced car they have ever made.
To continue to grow they need to make improvements. They have been so far, and I see no reason to assume they won't continue to improve.
 
ebill3 said:
Didn't Tesla announce early on when production of the various configurations would begin?
Depends on what you mean by "early on". Definitely it wasn't announced 3 years back.
 
Some people wait more, some less. I think Tesla was trying to deliver as many cars as they could at the end of the year, so the queue order was breached. Some folks on TMC thought that more California orders were completed rather than out of state orders.

Also, I think that a lot of it depends on the configuration you ordered. My order is finalized for a 85 kWh Model S in the new multi-coat red color, so my delivery time is currently April-May.

The more cars they make, the more successful they'll be...
 
Cars.com Reviews the 2012 Tesla Model S:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/01/carscom-reviews-the-2012-tesla-model-s.html?shout_id=22798%3A549049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting about the "butt sensor" issues the reviewer encountered. Is this fixed now?
 
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