TonyWilliams
Well-known member
surfingslovak said:
Easy to do with the Modular EVSE adapters (which I have one for NEMA 14-50).
It's bone simple to spoof the pilot signal with a resistor. Throw another one if for proximity signal.
Blink / Rav4 Blows Out a Contactor Pin (with gory pics)
- Thread starter TonyWilliams
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Easy to do with the Modular EVSE adapters (which I have one for NEMA 14-50).
It's bone simple to spoof the pilot signal with a resistor. Throw another one if for proximity signal.
Ingineer
Well-known member
I call that defective. Can you really tell me that kind of temperature rise is normal, when one side is twice as hot as the other?!?MikeD said:
Here's the bad pin in the blink handle:
The copper wire and it's insulation are discolored and embrittled from the heat (the other side still is shiny), so it's quite obvious the crimp is defective. It's not evenly squeezed, is oblong, and the metal of the barrel was smushed in the crimper, which was a low-cost 2-jaw type. The crimps in the other handles I have had apart are so much better, it's a world of difference.
-Phil
Ingineer
Well-known member
Here's a thermograph of the new 30A handle after charging my Leaf at 32A (note that this is 2A more) for 1 hour, with a peak temp of 87:
That's the kind of performance I'd expect.
-Phil
That's the kind of performance I'd expect.
-Phil
Ingineer
Well-known member
No, you can't "uncrimp" a pin.drees said:
Here's a properly engineered and implemented crimp from a Yazaki:
-Phil
waidy
Well-known member
Congrats on getting your RAV4-EV back. Question on your CC-40, doesn't the unit 40Amp compliance? Why do you have to do modification such as changing the ITT 75Amp on it?TonyWilliams said:
Ingineer: Did that suspect Blink connector fail any of your 50 deg C temperature rise tests? The highest temperature rise I saw you document was about 45 deg C. If not, you have not proved it to be defective, regardless of what it looks like. As you know a maximum ambient of 45 deg C + max temperature rise of 50 deg C = 95 deg C (less than the boiling point of water) is not going to melt the plastic used in either the J1772 connector or inlet.
BTW was that Yazaki made connector rated at 30 deg C or at around 70 deg C? I would expect that a highly rated connector would need to be carefully made, and of course would want all connectors be adequately made for their rated use.
Should EVs routinely monitor their inlet's temperature and protect it in some way from thermal damage? Of course, especially now when EVs are not widely accepted and trusted by the general public.
BTW was that Yazaki made connector rated at 30 deg C or at around 70 deg C? I would expect that a highly rated connector would need to be carefully made, and of course would want all connectors be adequately made for their rated use.
Should EVs routinely monitor their inlet's temperature and protect it in some way from thermal damage? Of course, especially now when EVs are not widely accepted and trusted by the general public.
TonyWilliams: You have changed the original wording of your original post (in most cases like this I wish people would just put later comments in an addendum so that readers can always see the OP) to the following:
"Update: My Rav4 was fixed under warranty, and I got a Camry rental for a week, also courtesy of Toyota. Of course, I don't think the Rav4 had anything to do with this, and Phil's IR thermometer testing indicates at least one other Blink/Rema handle got quite hot on one pin (opposite to my pin) on a Rav4. Keep in mind, these are only 30 amp Blinks and the Rav4 can take 40 amps.
Phil's conclusion; a poorly crimped connector on the Blink/Rema charging handle."
Neither Phil nor you proved what caused the failure -- apparently neither of you tested or even examined the Blink's melted connector really closely. You all are only speculating based on testing another Blink connector -- and even that testing did not reveal any out-of-spec conditions so far as has been documented.
"Keep in mind, these are only 30 amp Blinks and the Rav4 can take 40 amps." -- especially in the context of the rest of your post I read this as strongly implying that because the Rav4 on-board charger can draw as much as 40 amps the 30 amp Blink is even more likely to melt down -- which I'm pretty sure you would agree is incorrect. Any 30 amp rated Blink should never have a charger that it is connected to draw more than 30 amps (including the one in your Rav4).
Tony, please clarify this portion of your post if my reading of it is not what you meant to say. Isn't it important that you be as accurate and as fair as possible? You don't want people to get an erroneous understanding of important issues, do you?
One last thing: Did you come to a consensus with the Toyota Rav4 reps that the Rav4 needs to have thermal protection added in some way to its inlet (and which might involve a recall of Rav4s to remedy the exposure to the type of damage that you experienced, regardless of what exactly caused it)? If so did they add some kind of protection to your Rav4 while it was repaired?
"Update: My Rav4 was fixed under warranty, and I got a Camry rental for a week, also courtesy of Toyota. Of course, I don't think the Rav4 had anything to do with this, and Phil's IR thermometer testing indicates at least one other Blink/Rema handle got quite hot on one pin (opposite to my pin) on a Rav4. Keep in mind, these are only 30 amp Blinks and the Rav4 can take 40 amps.
Phil's conclusion; a poorly crimped connector on the Blink/Rema charging handle."
Neither Phil nor you proved what caused the failure -- apparently neither of you tested or even examined the Blink's melted connector really closely. You all are only speculating based on testing another Blink connector -- and even that testing did not reveal any out-of-spec conditions so far as has been documented.
"Keep in mind, these are only 30 amp Blinks and the Rav4 can take 40 amps." -- especially in the context of the rest of your post I read this as strongly implying that because the Rav4 on-board charger can draw as much as 40 amps the 30 amp Blink is even more likely to melt down -- which I'm pretty sure you would agree is incorrect. Any 30 amp rated Blink should never have a charger that it is connected to draw more than 30 amps (including the one in your Rav4).
Tony, please clarify this portion of your post if my reading of it is not what you meant to say. Isn't it important that you be as accurate and as fair as possible? You don't want people to get an erroneous understanding of important issues, do you?
One last thing: Did you come to a consensus with the Toyota Rav4 reps that the Rav4 needs to have thermal protection added in some way to its inlet (and which might involve a recall of Rav4s to remedy the exposure to the type of damage that you experienced, regardless of what exactly caused it)? If so did they add some kind of protection to your Rav4 while it was repaired?
surfingslovak
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2011
- Messages
- 3,809
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ_R-G_i4Xk[/youtube]MikeD said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
waidy said:
The CS-40 has a 30 amp rated cable and pilot signal, however the Rav4 can pull 40 amps. There are no 40 amp cables on the market, hence the 75amp one.
I have modified the pilot signal on the Clipper Creek to CS-50 specification (40 amps continuously on a 50 amp circuit breaker).
leafmealone
Well-known member
MikeD said:
Still waiting on Ohio's results to come in?
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
MikeD said:
We didn't look at the connector "closely"? Really? Speculating? The Blink / Rav4 connection got hot enough to melt it. It could have ultimately burnt my house down. That's not speculation.
Your assertion that my situation is not "out-of-spec" is blatantly incorrect; a failure IS out of spec. So, for logical and methodical folks like Phil, he tested another Blink connector... Same problem, one hotter pin. Then tested a different non-Blink device to isolate the issue... viola, works fine.
Then, a careful examination revealed a faulty pin. I'm not sure what your background is, but your criticism reminds me of the Phoenix range test critics. I've actually professionally built aircraft wiring harnesses and troubleshot failed "terminations". It's not rocket science. Just looking at the Blink pin in Phil's pictures, I would have rejected that termination without even measuring resistance, etc.
The Blink did not exceed 30 amps. I posted the actual measurements. My sentence reflects that the Rav4 can take more than the Blink can deliver, yet there was still a problem.
I think the J1772 standard is marginal for mass public consumption at 30-80 amps. It's even silly that that the standard doesn't include over temp protection, that CHAdeMO wisely included, and at least one car has (Honda Fit). The Rav4 should have this, too. I should be getting my components soon to make Phil's modification to my car.
We will know if Toyota "blames" the Blink product if they retract approval of these. Currently, it is on the approved list. Nothing was added, nor would I expect them to "experiment" on my car, particularly without my knowledge.
I was thinking more along the lines of re-crimping the pin, not uncrimping it.Ingineer said:
Quite a difference! Very clear that the Yazaki crimp will make nice solid contact with the wire, the correct amount of insulation was stripped from the wire, and all the wire appears to have made it into the pin (in comparison to the Blink/Revo pin).Ingineer said:
1. Tony's pictures clearly indicate that the failure was due to a single pin overheating.MikeD said:
2. Phil just happens to reproduce the same issue with another random Blink clearly showing overheating on one pin.
3. Someone else reports that Fit EVs are frequently shutting down when charging on Blinks due to thermal heating being picked up.
Seems way to coincidental to be an isolated problem. BTW - with Phil's Blink showing a minimum thermal rise of 70F over ambient - that's clearly out of spec and would not pass UL. It would take only a slightly more marginal crimp to create even hotter temps.
My only comment: Tony has posted pics of his RAV4EV inlet in 2 stages of damage. The first pics show some sign of damage before complete meltdown.
Compare these two:
With the later pics:
Don't know the timestamps of, but the first 2 pics clearly show thermal damage already.
BTW - anyone have a source for the security bit that the Blink/Revo handle uses? Standard torx security bits don't quite fit...
davewill
Well-known member
Does this mean that if the crimps are done correctly, that the handle design itself is probably OK? I'm planning on getting an IR thermometer (always wanted one anyway...or maybe I need an IR camera...yeah that's it.) and perhaps inspecting the inside of my Blink J1772 handle. Not sure what I'll do if I find a problem since, technically, I'm not supposed to open it up, but I'll worry about that if I find something.
GaslessInSeattle
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,566
I can just see it now, Elon pounding his fist, "I shouldn't have let that Toyota exec talk me out of requiring the tesla charging system on the RAV4!"
I've got to admit, this only reinforces the argument for Tesla having gone in house and created their own plug standard to handle high energy charging.
I've got to admit, this only reinforces the argument for Tesla having gone in house and created their own plug standard to handle high energy charging.
Ingineer
Well-known member
If you know anything about reliability engineering, you will instantly know that that badly crimped contact resistance is going nowhere but up. Each charge with that delta-T cycling will cause more and more oxidation until it does fail, and when it does, it's going to take out the other side. (Like Tony's did) I'll bet you a thousand dollars.MikeD said:
Just because it passes spec NOW doesn't mean its stable. I can see that evidence of heat in there for a long time. My experience is all that I need. If you want proof, I'll be happy to come install it in your EVSE and you can sleep comfortably at night knowing your car is safely charging in your garage using it's in-spec pin that won't burn your house down. :shock:
-Phil
Ingineer
Well-known member
Problem is the oxidation which was caused by the heat. You can't even solder to the copper anymore. No amount of re-crimping will get the now-high resistance low enough to prevent the eventual run-away condition like Tony experienced. In my experience, What starts as a little heat in the crimp, always keeps building exponentially until there is a catastrophic failure. I've seen it probably a thousand times, and my beard isn't grey yet!drees said:
Yes, they put enough force on the crimp to fuse the metals such that oxygen can't get in there and start it's ugly effect. They have the retention crimp, then that rectangular punch that really does it. The insulation is cut perfectly and butted right up to the barrel end such that strain is reduced. It's clearly been engineered by someone with experience with connector design. The Rema pin doesn't have nearly the crimp force.drees said:
It's a 5 lobe (Penta) security bit. Hard to find, but I have probably all types of security bits, because I spend a lot of time voiding warranties. :lol:drees said:
-Phil
Ingineer
Well-known member
All you need is one of these:davewill said:
Cost: $20.
If the crimps are good enough, then you are ok. Obviously one side in Tony's blink and one side (the opposite) in the other blink I examined were still good.
No need to take anything apart; just charge for at least 30 minutes with an SoC below 80%, then disconnect the handle. Point that thing (with the laser OFF) at your connector pins on the inlet and handle, specifically the top 2 (power carrying). Move it around slowly and look for the highest temp on each side. If there is a big Delta (difference) between the two sides, it probably means bad things to come.
-Phil
Ingineer
Well-known member
Problem is, in this case they are in deep wells, so you'd pretty much destroy the handle cutting slots in there.richard said:
I DO NOT recommend anyone take apart their J1772 handle! There is no need!
-Phil
