First to 100+ Miles

TonyWilliams said:

ENIAC said:

Here's anotherLEAF range test conducted by Edmunds Inside Line in May 2011. They went 132.0 miles. I think LEAF long range club should be at least 125 miles rather than 100 miles. Anyone with enough time and driving 35mph or less on relatively flat roads could do 100 miles easily.

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Ya, I hear the "easily" often. What I don't hear "easily" is actually performance.

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It is not easy in the greater LA area with all the stop lights and traffic. Driving all local streets, I got maybe 1 m/kW better than the freeway at 60mph. 120 mile round trip averaging 20mph, didn't use power to go faster than 30-35mph. Yes, I tried to hypermile by easing up to the stops, not accelerating excessively and using no climate control. Disappointing and not fun!

Edit: Before someone asks, I had to charge between the legs of the trip.

It is also not easy to spend 3 hours driving around at that speed

The above two posts make the point that I make over and over.... some guys says how "easy" it is, but of course has never done it.

It's obviously not that easy, or common, for all the above reasons and more. If the wind or temperature isn't right, or the cells not balanced, or the traffic lights aren't timed right, or there's terrain, etc.

100 miles in a LEAF is anything but easy, except in the most favorable conditions.

TonyWilliams said:

The above two posts make the point that I make over and over.... some guys says how "easy" it is, but of course has never done it.

It's obviously not that easy, or common, for all the above reasons and more. If the wind or temperature isn't right, or the cells not balanced, or the traffic lights aren't timed right, or there's terrain, etc.

100 miles in a LEAF is anything but easy, except in the most favorable conditions.

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Yes. 100 miles per charge is strictly flatlander stuff. The only way I could do it is if I did a one way downhill (might try that next summer if I can arrange the charging to get home). A 100 mile out-and-back where I live is pretty much out of the question.

Tony, your opinion of the GoM is much the same as mine I think. You might be amused at this picture of my GoM at mile 14.5 of a 69 mile trip:
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5154/leafguessometer0358crop.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I hit the Low Battery Warning at mile 66.) The previous time I drove that route the GoM showed 135 miles left at the same point. So, 150 miles should be "easy", right?

Tonight I beat my own record by reaching 130 miles (209.4 km) on a single charge. It took me 4 days of driving my usual crosstown trips in city traffic. The temps were 65 to 75 degrees so I did not use climate control. I did not go on interstate.

I averaged 6.4 m/kwh. I hit low batt at 105.8 miles (when GOM showed 13 miles left), and VLB at 121 miles.

Here is the picture with the odometer set for miles.

Nightrider nice job I see your battery temp level is at 6 also ,which makes a big difference..

I could not understand how so many were having a hardtime in reaching 100 miles,but now I understand what cold weather does to the charge..

N1ghtrider said:

I averaged 6.4 m/kwh. I hit low batt at 105.8 miles (when GOM showed 13 miles left), and VLB at 121 miles.

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Roy, thank you for posing this picture. It seems that the charging display for 120V is off a bit. Do you typically use the Nissan-supplied EVSE for trickle charging? If so, I'm wondering if you are getting partial charges in the middle of the battery range, and don't top off to 80 or 100%.

I wanted to see if we could predict the remaining available charge based on your data and the current battery model. I had you at 0.43 kWh or 3 miles remaining. This would correlate with 25 hours on the 120V charing time display, and not 22 hours. The 240V charging display seems to be more accurate, and it indicates that you were somewhere within the last 1.5 kWh of your battery capacity.

Note: I believe that Tony came up with a very similar estimate a little while ago: 20.7 kWh usable and 0.4 kWh remaining.

I have a garage too full of junk to pull my Leaf completely inside, and my 240V charging station cord is too short to feed completely outside, so I use the 240V charger during waking hours when I leave the garage door open and pull the nose of the Leaf partly inside. When I go to bed I back the Leaf out and use the longer 120V cord, which I can feed outside, so most of my recharging is at least a little of each voltage.

It looks like Carwings establishes that I really beat the distance record and reached 132.9 miles on a single charge:

My city driving was residential and commercial streets with speed limits of 30 to 45 mph and me generally going 36 to 41 with stops for traffic lights, stop signs and backups every few blocks, with perhaps a straightaway of a mile or so every once in awhile. I kept up with the flow of traffic.

Here is the more detailed data from Carwings.

On 1/20 I drove 5.9 miles. "Driving History" shows 1.1 kWh consumed. "My Driving Style" clarifies that it was 1.5 kWh consumed driving, 0.1 kWh consumed by accessories, and 0.5 regen, for a net 1.1 kWh used, or 5.6 m/kWh

On 1/21 I drove 47.3 miles. "Driving History" shows 8.5 kWh consumed. "My Driving Style" clarifies that it was 11.7 kWh consumed driving, 0.6 kWh consumed by accessories, and 3.9 regen, for a net 8.5 kWh used, or 5.6 m/kWh.

On 1/22 I drove 79.7 miles. "Driving History" shows 12.2 kWh consumed. "My Driving Style" clarifies that it was 15.2 kWh consumed driving, 0.9 kWh consumed by accessories, and 3.9 regen, for a net 12.2 kWh used, at 6.5 m/kWh.

I just drove 102.3 miles tonight on a single charge. First time I've really tried. The first 17 miles, I wasn't even trying as we had just planned to go out to eat and back. Then dropped our daughter off and took off to the sister-in-law's house, being more conservative. Got back having gone 85 miles and still had 10 miles on the guessometer. My wife and I looked at each other and thought at the same time if we could get over 100. Made a couple of laps around the airport so we wouldn't be too far from home. Got the --- at 95 miles. One more lap and I was back at my driveway at 102.3 miles. I could have gone further as I hadn't gotten the turtle, but decided to call it a night.

davetex99 said:

I just drove 102.3 miles tonight on a single charge.

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You're in the club. Congrats.

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on. The GID meter started with 260 GIDs and I voice logged the miles, GIDS, and the new 55B SOC values while I drove. The starting temp was 58 and ended at 68. The GIDs went from 260 down to 24 with 6.8 miles/kwhr (Low Battery at 49 and Very Low Battery at 24). The carwings data (I don't have the NTB=041 patch) says I went 112.3 miles but only used 11.2 kwhr with 6.6 kwhr regen. The total 17.8 is more like what I used from the battery (260-24)*75.4 WHr = 17.8 KWHr for another calculation of the Watthours in a GID. I also logged the DTE (GOM) value and it appears to have been withing 5 miles of the total range during the exercise. This driving was all done in bay area suburbs with lots of stop and go and all at one sitting. I did not have any climate control active, no daytime lights on and windows were always up. Later in the week I will transcript the voice log and share the trip details for miles, SOC (55B), and GIDs.

Congratulations, Nekota! 6.8 miles/kWh is pretty impressive!

Nekota said:

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on.

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Nekota said:

The carwings data (I don't have the NTB=041 patch) says I went 112.3 miles but only used 11.2 kwhr with 6.6 kwhr regen.

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You're getting the standard 2.5% error in Carwings distance that we all get, but you cannot trust the energy usage in Carwings until you get the patch applied. We just got it a week ago and it resolved that issue.

RegGuheert said:

Congratulations, Nekota! 6.8 miles/kWh is pretty impressive!

Nekota said:

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on.

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Nekota said:

The carwings data (I don't have the NTB=041 patch) says I went 112.3 miles but only used 11.2 kwhr with 6.6 kwhr regen.

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You're getting the standard 2.5% error in Carwings distance that we all get, but you cannot trust the energy usage in Carwings until you get the patch applied. We just got it a week ago and it resolved that issue.

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Nekota:

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on. The GID meter started with 260 GIDs and I voice logged the miles, GIDS, and the new 55B SOC values while I drove. The starting temp was 58 and ended at 68. The GIDs went from 260 down to 24 with 6.8 miles/kwhr..

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I believe that hat works out to ~16.9 kWh, as compared to your 17.8 KWh gid calculation.

I suspect both may be understanding your actual kWh use, however.

The Arizona test did showed significant inaccuracy in both the gid Wh content, and the dash m/kWh displays, of the twelve test LEAFs.

My own range tests on a car a with similar use history as Nekota's show this "impressive" drift upward in my dash, nav screen, and CW m/kWh displays, reflecting the underlying common error in understatement of kWh use, fairly convincingly, IMO:

The results from 8/30/12 were:

97.3 miles to VLB, 98.9 miles in total, by the odometer.

CW: 96.5 (~2.5% under-report) total miles, at 5.7 m/kWh, 16.8 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, slightly past VLBW.

Compare this test with my first test on 9/7/11:

91.5 miles to VLB, 93.4 in total, by the odometer

CW: 91.1 (~2.5% under-report) total miles, at 4.9 m/kWh, 18.7 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, slightly past VLBW.

It seems very likely to me that both are reflecting the same underlying error in my LEAF’s dash, nav screen and CW kWh use reports, as also effected by other variables which I cannot eliminate from my observations.

So, I believe that the recharge time results are compatible with my range tests, which indicate no observed reduction in range, both probably indicating that my LEAF has no observable loss of available battery capacity (though some amount has almost certainly occurred) over the last 12 months....

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So Nekota, unless you have a recharge calculation that supports either the gid or dash energy use calculations, I suggest neither you or anyone else consider them an accurate source for your LEAF's actual battery capacity.

Nekota said:

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on. The GID meter started with 260 GIDs and I voice logged the miles, GIDS, and the new 55B SOC values while I drove. The starting temp was 58 and ended at 68. The GIDs went from 260 down to 24 with 6.8 miles/kwhr (Low Battery at 49 and Very Low Battery at 24). The carwings data (I don't have the NTB=041 patch) says I went 112.3 miles but only used 11.2 kwhr with 6.6 kwhr regen. The total 17.8 is more like what I used from the battery (260-24)*75.4 WHr = 17.8 KWHr for another calculation of the Watthours in a GID. I also logged the DTE (GOM) value and it appears to have been withing 5 miles of the total range during the exercise. This driving was all done in bay area suburbs with lots of stop and go and all at one sitting. I did not have any climate control active, no daytime lights on and windows were always up. Later in the week I will transcript the voice log and share the trip details for miles, SOC (55B), and GIDs.

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WOW!! Great run!

Nekota said:

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on... 6.8 miles/kWh

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What was the ambient temp and assumed battery temp?

6.8 * 19.43kWh (260/281 of 21) = 132 miles. Let me guess... The 6.8 came from CarWings??? Since you only drove 115 to VLB, there's no way you'd drive 132 (17 more miles) from VLB.

It's very likely that you could have gotten 8 more miles past VLB, which would have put you at number 5 in the 200km Club.

123 / 19.43kWh (260/281 of 21) = 6.3 miles/kWh

As it stands, I humbly crown you "41".

TonyWilliams said:

Nekota said:

I just turned 15,000 and with a new GID meter I decided to try for 100 and finished at 115.1 miles after VLB warning came on... 6.8 miles/kWh

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What was the ambient temp and assumed battery temp?

6.8 * 19.43kWh (260/281 of 21) = 132 miles. Let me guess... The 6.8 came from CarWings??? Since you only drove 115 to VLB, there's no way you'd drive 132 (17 more miles) from VLB.

It's very likely that you could have gotten 8 more miles past VLB, which would have put you at number 5 in the 200km Club.

123 / 19.43kWh (260/281 of 21) = 6.3 miles/kWh

As it stands, I humbly crown you "41".

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The ambient temperature started at 58F and ended up at 68F as measured on the car dashboard with most of the change in the first hour. The battery temperature was 5 bars at start of run and increased to 6 bars around 60 miles.

The 6.8 was from the center console reading. Carwings gave a 10.0 miles/kwhr so I didn't bother with that one. My miles/kwhr went up during the trip as traffic density increased, my average velocity was lower. I don't think the air density would have that much of an effect with 10 degree delta at 150 feet altitude. I was surprised at the amount of energy in the battery at the low GID values, it seemed to me to be they changed slower once I got to below 50 GIDs.

Nekota said:

The 6.8 was from the center console reading. Carwings gave a 10.0 miles/kwhr so I didn't bother with that one.

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Sounds like you still have the original (buggy) telematics software in your LEAF, which had a calculation bug that reported incorrect/low kWh consumption to CARWINGS/Nissan. Your Boot Ware/Application should be at 147+ and, if it isn't, can be updated via last year's TB-11-041.. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to check yourself.

grommet said:

Nekota said:

The 6.8 was from the center console reading. Carwings gave a 10.0 miles/kwhr so I didn't bother with that one.

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Sounds like you still have the original (buggy) telematics software in your LEAF, which had a calculation bug that reported incorrect/low kWh consumption to CARWINGS/Nissan. Your Boot Ware/Application should be at 147+ and, if it isn't, can be updated via last year's TB-11-041.. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to check yourself.

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The center console (nav screen) appears to report m/kWh using the car odometer.

The dash apparently reports m/kWh identical to Carwings ( post TB-11-041 update) using another from-the-wheels odometer reading that understates miles by ~2.5%.

Both of those are with new stock tires. The dash odometer should become progressively less accurate, and the CW odometer more accurate, as tire circumfrence decreases with tread wear.

Unfortunately, neither the CW, dash, or nav screen can report correct m/kWh if your LEAF is under-reporting kWh use.

Many still consider gid counts and m/kWh reports as useful statements of kWh use and battery capacity, even after many reports of inaccuracy in both these data sources, have proven them to be highly suspect in many, if not all, LEAFs.

I Would suggest anyone who has any problem with Carwings get the necessary update or other service to enable it's use.

And press "accept".

The confusion between the two occurrences, available battery capacity loss, and gid/m/kWh report error, seems greatest among those that do not or can not access the Carwings energy use data.

Without the inaccurate CW records of dash m/kWh and total kWh use, as compared to accurate range test or recharge kWh use results, it would probably be very difficult to differentiate actual loss of battery capacity from the "gauge error" that obscures it.

Unfortunately, among those with with capacity bar loss, only TickTock has reported recharge kWh, and few have reported their results from range tests over time, and reported kWh use (as I have, from my 12-capacity-bar LEAF) to try to differentiate the kWh use and gid report error (if they are not the same thing) from actual battery capacity loss .

So, IMO, an immense quantity of conjectural posts have been made on the capacity loss question, in a near-vacuum of data.