100 Mile Club, 200 km, 300 km, 200 Mile Club (24kWh LEAF)

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N1ghtrider said:
mkjayakumar said:
8 months of ownership and only 5k miles ?
Click to expand...

I have had the LEAF 7 months and 6 days. The first few months I have been putting miles "in the bank" because I have a lease and was burned by excess miles once. My goal now is to drive the LEAF 1000 miles per month to get the most value I can out of it, which is 33 miles per day, and keep the other 2,000 miles in the bank for unexpected needs. I only drive 18 miles roundtrip to work and back a day, with a couple of miles to the store or other errands. When the weather is nice I often ride my Harley to work instead of taking the LEAF. I have trips longer than 50 miles each way once a week or so and use my ICE (honda civic hybrid) for those, unless I will be stopped at the destination for more than a couple of hours and can recharge enough to get back.
Click to expand...

Now Harley needs an electric motorcycle with a majorly loud speaker to give that Harley rumble.
 
December 31, 2011, with 577 miles on the odometer:
N1ghtrider said:
111 miles today on a single charge :cool: with 5.9 m/kwh. 50 of those miles were Thursday and Friday and the other 61 today. It was all city streets at 65-75 degrees, no a/c. No hills in Miami for regen. I hit "low battery" at about 102 miles and never hit "very low battery." I will post a picture of the odometer if someone can walk me through how to post it (I am a computer idiot).
Click to expand...
July 21, 2012, with 5129 miles on the odometer:
N1ghtrider said:
N1ghtrider's 14th time to reach 100 miles or better on a single charge. With this accomplishment (and my 3 times beating 200 km) I am temporarily retiring from the quest to beat these marks. I will get back in the hunt when someone else breaks 10 charges of 100-plus miles or meets my three 200 km-plus record.

2012-07-21201352151-1.jpg


I hit lbw at 84.4 miles; never hit vlbw. I lost the last charge bar at 90 miles.
Click to expand...
Assuming the LBW mile reports are accurate and efficiency was the same after LBW, it seems that N1ghtrider's LEAF has lost about 16% of its capacity from full to LBW in the last 6.5 months/4500 miles. And this is true even though the temperature was probably 20F warmer for this last report.
 
N1ghtrider said:
I question that amount of loss of efficiency. On the December trip I had 5.9 m/kwh (per dash) and 5.8 on my most recent 100-mile charge. I think it was mainly the use of air conditioner for part of this charge.
Click to expand...
Not efficiency, but capacity.

I went through all these posts and collected the data from your 100+ mile runs below.

Note that 4 months ago, you were getting LBW at 90+ miles when averaging 5.8 mi/kWh - but this last time you only made it 84.4 miles to LBW. 16% might be a bit much, but it sure looks like you have lost some capacity between 100% and LBW. Hard to say for sure with just one data-point, and who knows what will happen if you drive it to VLBW or lower.

Code: 
12/31/11 111.0 mi 5.9 mi/kWh LBW 102 mi  no VLBW                 18.8 kWh used
 1/05/12 103.1 mi 5.4 mi/kWh LBW 93.3 mi  VLBW?                   19.1 kWh used
 1/13/12 125.4 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 103 mi   VLBW 114 mi             20.5 kWh used
 1/22/12 130.1 mi 6.4 mi/kWh LBW 105.8 mi VLBW 121 mi             20.4 kWh used
 2/17/12 126.1 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 98.1 mi  VLBW 114.3 mi TTL 126.0 20.7 kWh used
 2/26/12 102.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 92.3 mi  no VLBW                 17.6 kWh used
 3/03/12 105.1 mi 5.7 mi/kWh LBW ? GOM 6  no VLBW                 18.5 kWh used
 3/10/12 101.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWH LBW ? GOM 8  no VLBW                 17.5 kWh used
 3/24/12 106.3 mi 5.7 mi/kWH LBW 93.2     no VLBW                 18.7 kWh used
 3/29/12 106.2 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.3     VLBW 105.7              18.3 kWh used
 4/06/12 111.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.8     VLBW 108.9              19.2 kWh used
 4/11/12 107.3 mi 6.0 mi/kWh LBW 96.0     no VLBW                 17.9 kWh used
 7/21/12 100.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 84.4     no VLBW                 17.2 kWh used
 
drees said:
N1ghtrider said:
I question that amount of loss of efficiency. On the December trip I had 5.9 m/kwh (per dash) and 5.8 on my most recent 100-mile charge. I think it was mainly the use of air conditioner for part of this charge.
Click to expand...
Not efficiency, but capacity.

I went through all these posts and collected the data from your 100+ mile runs below.

Note that 4 months ago, you were getting LBW at 90+ miles when averaging 5.8 mi/kWh - but this last time you only made it 84.4 miles to LBW. 16% might be a bit much, but it sure looks like you have lost some capacity between 100% and LBW. Hard to say for sure with just one data-point, and who knows what will happen if you drive it to VLBW or lower.

Code: 
12/31/11 111.0 mi 5.9 mi/kWh LBW 102 mi  no VLBW                 18.8 kWh used
 1/05/12 103.1 mi 5.4 mi/kWh LBW 93.3 mi  VLBW?                   19.1 kWh used
 1/13/12 125.4 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 103 mi   VLBW 114 mi             20.5 kWh used
 1/22/12 130.1 mi 6.4 mi/kWh LBW 105.8 mi VLBW 121 mi             20.4 kWh used
 2/17/12 126.1 mi 6.1 mi/kWh LBW 98.1 mi  VLBW 114.3 mi TTL 126.0 20.7 kWh used
 2/26/12 102.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 92.3 mi  no VLBW                 17.6 kWh used
 3/03/12 105.1 mi 5.7 mi/kWh LBW ? GOM 6  no VLBW                 18.5 kWh used
 3/10/12 101.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWH LBW ? GOM 8  no VLBW                 17.5 kWh used
 3/24/12 106.3 mi 5.7 mi/kWH LBW 93.2     no VLBW                 18.7 kWh used
 3/29/12 106.2 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.3     VLBW 105.7              18.3 kWh used
 4/06/12 111.3 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 91.8     VLBW 108.9              19.2 kWh used
 4/11/12 107.3 mi 6.0 mi/kWh LBW 96.0     no VLBW                 17.9 kWh used
 7/21/12 100.0 mi 5.8 mi/kWh LBW 84.4     no VLBW                 17.2 kWh used
Click to expand...

Note that the energy use from "100%" to LBW from this table, seems to have declined ~4% between new at 12/31/11 and April 2012, and then over 10% additionally, by the time of the July report.

This looks to me reflect much the same experience of declining battery capacity many others saw, relatively stable gid counts and no bar capacity losses, until rapid gid count drops, and multiple bar loss reports began, this spring.

RegGuheert
...Assuming the LBW mile reports are accurate and efficiency was the same after LBW, it seems that N1ghtrider's LEAF has lost about 16% of its capacity from full to LBW in the last 6.5 months/4500 miles. And this is true even though the temperature was probably 20F warmer for this last report.
Click to expand...

Or, perhaps, because the temperature was much warmer.

Lower capacity at lower temperatures is expected, due to battery capacity.

Lower "capacity" in high-temperature conditions, that is the amount of charge the battery pack can accept at higher temperatures, has been anecdotally reported many times. Unfortunately, TickTock's log of his gid count last year, is the only report of significant "recovery" of long-term capacity, during cooler weather. And (unless someone relocates their LEAF to a cooler climate) if we see any future reports of battery "capacity" increasing, they probably won't happen until Winter.

The only explanation I've seen proposed for lower charge levels at higher temperatures, and the ability of the battery to recover "capacity" once lower temperatures arrive, is limitation of charge level by the LEAF BMS under high temperature conditions, rather than actual degradation of the battery, causing reduced capacity.

It is interesting that capacity reduction in Miami might be this great, even though it looks like average temperatures are ~20 F lower there, than in Phoenix.

More reports like this from "moderate" climate LEAFs, would be further evidence, IMO, that either the LEAF battery is extremely susceptible to degradation, even in relatively moderate temperatures, or there is at least some BMS operation, adding "noise" to the capacity results, shown by gids and capacity bars.
 
First, efficiencies (miles per kWh) are reflected with heater and air conditioning use. Secondly, a warmer battery has more energy than a cold one. Therefore, a warm battery LEAF with the same 5.8 miles per kWh (regardless of climate control use or no use) will have a longer range than a cold battery one at the same 5.8 miles/mKw. That battery capacity change with temperature is reflected in the range chart at 1% loss of capacity per 4F below 70F, and 1% increase per 8F above 70F.

Like several of us (myself included) in moderate coastal California who have reported similar range reduction to Nightrider's far hotter Miami based car, my car was solidly putting out expected range until just before one year, when it dropped like a rock to about 13% loss in range (NOT a GoM number, but Gid count backed up with ACTUAL miles driven).

Now that I have two LEAFs, and I've been gone for much of the past several months, that car doesn't get driven much (compared to 2000 miles per month previous). Degradation seems to have stabilized at 13%, but then we will only know in another year.

Edit: capacity was at 18% reduction a few days after this post, and falling fast, so I unloaded the 2011 LEAF car. I still have a 2012 lease car (that I drove from Mexico to Canada June 12-20, 2012).
 
Finally!

Anticipating the need, I hit the override for 100% charge yesterday. Turned out I only drove 52 miles, but with an all time high (for me, that is) of 5.8 miles/kWh. So decided to go for it today.

Low battery at 98.4, VLB at 111.2, chickened out and drove 1 mile to home for a total of 112.2.
 
ebill3 said:
Finally!

Anticipating the need, I hit the override for 100% charge yesterday. Turned out I only drove 52 miles, but with an all time high (for me, that is) of 5.8 miles/kWh. So decided to go for it today.

Low battery at 98.4, VLB at 111.2, chickened out and drove 1 mile to home for a total of 112.2.
Click to expand...

Very strong, Mr. 35. Looking forward to your 200km announcement !
 
I did it! And I didn't even get to turtle. The trick is to start on a mountain with nearly a full charge, then drive down it. ;)

I also had 7 TB the whole way. :cry:

Jeremy
 

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TonyWilliams said:
JeremyW said:
I did it! And I didn't even get to turtle. The trick is to start on a mountain with nearly a full charge, then drive down it. ;)

I also had 7 TB the whole way. :cry:

Jeremy
Click to expand...
I hereby proclaim you #36 :mrgreen:
Click to expand...
I thought it had to be a round trip to avoid elevation cheating.
 
davewill said:
TonyWilliams said:
JeremyW said:
I did it! And I didn't even get to turtle. The trick is to start on a mountain with nearly a full charge, then drive down it. ;)

I also had 7 TB the whole way. :cry:

Jeremy
Click to expand...
I hereby proclaim you #36 :mrgreen:
Click to expand...
I thought it had to be a round trip to avoid elevation cheating.
Click to expand...

Not a round trip, but one with no elevation loss, is required. Otherwise you are driving, in part, on the previous charge, the one that got you to your initial elevation.

It's really not a much of a challenge to drive 100 miles in a LEAF with a full-capacity battery, beyond finding a low speed route, and putting your LEAF in Eco. Large elevation gains don't even cut range much (as long as you recover the ascent energy later) but a scenic route may alleviate the inevitable boredom, IMO.

At least that been my experience, on my two runs to VLBW, of about 106 and 113 miles,with over 6,000 ft of net ascent and ascent.

And my ~dozen runs over 90 miles, and one just over 100 miles, where I didn't drive all the way to the VLBW, on the same route here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
JeremyW said:
I did it! And I didn't even get to turtle. The trick is to start on a mountain with nearly a full charge, then drive down it. ;)

I also had 7 TB the whole way. :cry:

Jeremy
Click to expand...

Congrats!! the only thing with starting with a full charge at the top of the hill is you lose your regen. i can see by your 7 TBs that you are to blame for the heat wave we have right now. we are expected to be 20+ degrees over normal Thurs and Fri.

with an average high temp of 76º, we do not have A/C other than the window variety that worked well when we got it. unfortunately, the house i am in now with 12 foot ceilings, open architecture, etc. simply does not lend to a window unit. i am thinking maybe i will set it up and we can all hibernate in one room maybe?

as it is, i will be spending most of my time in the pool (yes we have a 3 footer) since the lakes (i live on basically an a path between two lakes and have one less than 100 yards on either side) will be wall to wall people
 
TonyWilliams said:
Jeremy, are you feeling guilty yet? Do I have to put an asterisk by your name?
Click to expand...
Aw man! Now I have to do it again without elevation changes? I should have kept my damn mouth shut! :lol:

I started the trip down the mountain with 11 bars, I could have probably started with 10. I most certainly cannot make it up there on one charge, I have to start at 100% and charge for two hours at an RV park. I guess I'm storing some kWh in potential energy. ;)

I'm not planning any super slow long range drives at the moment. The longest trips I take at the moment are to the leaf meetings in the bay area. Those drives have too much wind, elevation changes, and tailgaters to make it viable (or safe). Around town, I'm proud of my 3.8 average. I'm "marketing" the car at almost every light. I don't think I'm going to stop that just to remove the asterisk. It would probably be a whole week without my liberal use of AC and the go peddle. That would just be torture! :lol:

Jeremy
 
I discovered this forum last week when I was trying to figure out how the GOM worked. I read all 44 pages of this post one evening into the early morning and knew I had to try it. All the hyper miling tricks I learned here paid off instantly as I increased my avg kwh/m by a few tenths immediatly. Shift to R was scary the first time but I feel I shift as often as a person driving a manual transmission now. We have lot's of hills in my area. Not boasting as I'm sure most of you would laugh at what I call a hill in the midwest but it still has noticable performance impact.

So, on a full 100% charge, I did 2 roundtrip days to work; 17 miles one way with several 55mph sections and aforementioned "hills". Some light errands and I was home with 6 miles left on the GOM and ~5.5kwh/m. LBW kicked on at about 83 miles. My wife has severe range anxiety despite my constant reassurance so I dropped her off to finish my "experiment".

Driving off into mile after mile of corn fields with the sun setting on an incredible 75 degree evening with 4 miles range on the GOM was a bit unnerving, even armed with Tony's wisdom, but it was surreal. VLB kicked on ~93 miles and I decided I should get closer to home. At about 102 I felt the strong urge to head home but decided to give my 4 mile loop one more go. I really wanted to see what happened at turtle first hand. At the furthest point, as I was turning around, "Turtle!". I actually yelled that out with joy.

...immediately followed by, "Oh, crap!" The power grid dropped from full to 1 bubble instantly and that was generous given the struggle I had accelerating. Exactly half a mile later, slowly nursing the speed up to 31 mph, I turned into the subdivision across from mine. But only a 100 yards or so into it, it auto shifted to N with no compulsion to go more. 105.5 miles under my normal driving conditions, except for the last 15 or so, 100% to dead.

I snapped the below the next morning when I came to check on the car. It didn't show the turtle anymore but still refused to shift to D. Apparantly magic battery fairies don't exist.
753c0506.jpg


$32 for a couple hours of rental on an industrial generator resolved the shift to D problem. Despite my new confidence of knowing my exact limitations, I fear my wife's range anxiety has now heightened. For some, just seeing a car sidelined is more powerful than understanding why. I know better to argue, though. :)
 
Congratulations! Two posts on the forum and you've already driven to dead! More guts than I've got. It took me a month to try LBW and another month to try VLBW. Tony had better watch out or his turtle record might be in jeopardy :lol:.

Reddy
 
="JeremyW"
Now I have to do it again without elevation changes?... That would just be torture! :lol:
Click to expand...

Take a day trip up into the hills--Georgetown maybe?

Just leave it in ECO, use the "go pedal" to maintain neutral energy as much as is convenient, take it slow, and stay off the high-speed highways, as much as possible.

Stop for a swim and a meal, and whatever other attractions the route offers.

Doesn't sound like "torture" to me, and you might make a hundred miles to VLBW, without too much effort.

If you need to use more capacity than that, its probably not worth the trouble, IMO.
 

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