Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
OrientExpress said:
eHelmholtz said:
Nissan has not shown appropriate support for it's early adopters!

Why would you say that?

Sure they have!!! They'll just tweek that faulty software you heard about, and we'll all be singing "All Hail Nissan" any day now, right? In the mean time, we just charge more.

It's all covered.
 
OrientExpress said:
eHelmholtz said:
Nissan has not shown appropriate support for it's early adopters!

Why would you say that?
Likely an echo of a similar discussion on the Volt forum. The consensus there is that Leaf owners deserve to be treated better and that GM approached the adversity they were facing with the Volt more effectively. These are their words, not mine:

larry4pyro said:
Click to open
1
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that this is as much a business challenge as it is an engineering challenge. I don't presume to know how to address this issue better than Nissan executives, but let's have a look at the Volt community. The vocal supporters there are unanimous about GM's decision to offer buy-backs to dissatisfied owners in the wake of the Volt fire risk, which broke the news earlier this year. I believe that both the patient and the impatient owners were helped by that announcement and surprisingly few have exercised this option. Moreover, it demonstrated that the manufacturer is committed to the product and will do what it takes to make it successful, which was likely as important as acquiescing dissatisfied owners. Given the trajectory the discussion has taken on this forum and elsewhere, it might be appropriate to reflect on the situation.
 
OrientExpress said:
Well granted this owners group does seem to have a few more very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners than other marques :D , but on the whole, they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.

You appear to be a doctor now, making a diagnosis. Listen, obviously MOST LEAF owners don't know or care about something that doesn't affect them directly. That's the human existence. You're a good example. You have your car that is working well for you, and you're obviously happy with it, and it's just tough doo doo for those that don't have the same.

A few owners have an issue with their car, it has not met their expectations, and because of that they are frustrated and for whatever reason are unable to deal with the situation and would rather freak out.

Honestly, people are "freaking out"? Your continued, for lack a of better term, lap dog status with Nissan is troubling to me. Your earlier comment of there not being a problem because people could just "charge more" is the very epitome of lap dog status, in my view. The software glitch idea, while certainly reasonable to discuss and attempt to rule out or prove, is just that. An idea or theory. Folks have commented on it. Personally, I don't think software is the issue for all the reasons others have stated. That doesn't mean that Nissan won't state that since, let's face it, software will cost them next to nothing, and lithium batteries exposed to over 120F/50C in a Phoenix asphalt parking lot would NEVER cause a problem.

But, the real problem with your continued attacks and name calling (and medical diagnosis) against folks who don't follow your lap dog thinking process brings discredit to any rational thought you may possess. Honestly, I don't think you're swaying anybody here, and it's your approach (well, and the message).

Speculation is rampant, and facts are few. Some have taken to public forums such as this one to fan the flames of discontent in a very trollish manner, and have played right into the hands of those that would prefer for the BEV movement to fail.

Indeed, your own speculation, no doubt, is not included. You may wish to look in the mirror for those "trolls". I will admit, however, that the Teabagging idiots will use anything against BEV's, of that I am certain. Which seems to imply that we should just shut up and let things play out. Hey, that might work. Or it might not.

Others have tried to understand the problem, and enjoy the challenge, much like playing fantasy football. Their tools are limited and what they are investigating is not well understood, but it certainly is fun to try to figure this out in a positive way, and there are several hypothesis that have been brought forth that are reasonable and possible. When the fix is implemented by Nissan, it will be interesting to see how many had a dog that could hunt.

Yes, the folks who actually put in the leg work for understanding certainly are not you.

Meanwhile Nissan has acknowledged that there is an issue and is bringing the full weight of its engineering resources and expertise world-wide to understand what is happening and provide a solution to the issue and to improve their products moving forward. These things take time resolve properly, but for many that is not good enough and demand immediate satisfaction. That lack of patience is disappointing because for every one of those that are vocal advocates of dissatisfaction, there are 600 that are satisfied with their cars or are patient enough and confident enough that Nissan will resolve this. I myself are one of the 600.

Yes, we know, you got yours, and happen to live in a place that won't have serious battery issues from heat. We know. You tell us a lot. Congrats.

I don't honestly believe that most people reading any of this expect a speedy solution, should there ever be one. Quite the opposite, in fact. But, you keep believing that. Maybe pump out your chest a little with indignation.

Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done.

Thank you for being the "tool" that every forum needs. I'd recommend putting me on your ignore list, because you are an absolute waste of internet space.
 
surfingslovak said:
The vocal supporters there are unanimous about GM's decision to offer buy-backs to dissatisfied owners in the wake of the Volt fire risk, which broke the news earlier this year.

I think that has come up on this forum several times earlier, and while I think that is a logical approach for Nissan, there are key fundamental differences between the two events.

GM knew, and forcefully pursued that there wasn't anything wrong with the car. Heck, the put Bob Lutz (who was not even a GM employee anymore) on Faux Noose. It was beautiful.

In addition to forceful pushback, knowing there wasn't a real issue, they also offered Volt owners to swap out their cars. In addition, they did a voluntary recall to upgrade some hardware to the battery structure.

Nissan has done none of that. Will they? I can only hope.
 
Welcome to the dark side of the auto industry!

Don't forget Chevy was not really that forthcoming with the battery pack fire risk. They informed the public of the problem only after the government started a safety defect investigation. The NHTSA informed them about the problem in June 2011. Chevy did nothing until the NHTSA opened a formal safety defect investigation on Nov 25. They kept the problem hidden for 6 months and were lucky no actual real-world incidents occurred. It took them over a month to come up with a fix for a serious safety issue.

The comparison between the Volt serious safety issue to the Leaf battery capacity loss is weak. A better comparison of the Chevy Volt fires would be to the Fiskar Karma fires, although the battery pack does not seem to be issue with the Karma.

It does not seem the Leaf issues even qualify as a defect under the Lemon Law! Perhaps we need specific EV legislation to address Battery Capacity issues!
 
I really don't see the Volt fire episode (and the buyout offer) and this one being similar. The Volt issue was a perceived safety one that had an the possibility of fire in it, whereas the LEAF issue is not.

In all industry product satisfaction cases where there is an element of danger because of a fire, it is standard practice to offer to buy back or exchange the product. That is not the typical response in a "your mileage may vary" issue.

But still, essentially all of the options that are available to any vehicle owner that are dissatisfied with their car are on the table for LEAF owners.

They can:
Let the manufacturer fix the problem
They can sell or trade-in the car for another one
They can take advantage of their states Lemon Law statutes to recover a pro-rated amount of their investment in the car
They can attempt litigation

While I am not a "tool" of Nissan, I do understand how the process of resolving an issue such as this works, and again I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.
 
="OrientExpress"]... I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.

Well, I may not be as confident as you are, but I do expect that Nissan will probably announce efforts that should satisfy most legitimate complaints.

I am, unfortunately, much more confident that whatever Nissan announces as to what actually is going on with LEAF battery capacity, and what proposals it will make to alleviate consumer complaints, some members of this forum will continue their hysterical ranting.

I am most concerned that Nissan might alter future BEV sales plans, after concluding that American BEV buyers simply are incapable of understanding the trade-offs, in battery life, and battery use, of vehicle batteries, and cannot exercise judgement in their driving and charging habits, to get their own particular optimum use from their batteries.

Nissan and other BEV manufactures may even move to "idiot-proof" future EV designs for the American market, and take much the same approach GM did with the Volt.

And I would find this outcome quite possibly a much greater disappointment, a few years from now, than if my LEAF loses capacity somewhat faster than I expected, when I bought it.
 
spike09 said:
Don't forget Chevy was not really that forthcoming with the battery pack fire risk. They informed the public of the problem only after the government started a safety defect investigation. The NHTSA informed them about the problem in June 2011. Chevy did nothing until the NHTSA opened a formal safety defect investigation on Nov 25. They kept the problem hidden for 6 months and were lucky no actual real-world incidents occurred. It took them over a month to come up with a fix for a serious safety issue.
Thank you for clarifying that.

spike09 said:
The comparison between the Volt serious safety issue to the Leaf battery capacity loss is weak. A better comparison of the Chevy Volt fires would be to the Fiskar Karma fires, although the battery pack does not seem to be issue with the Karma.
Please understand that I was not making a qualitative comparison between the severity of the two problems. That wouldn't make any sense. All I wanted to highlight was the approach taken to quell fear, doubt and uncertainty once the problem broke the news and it was in everyone's mouth.

spike09 said:
It does not seem the Leaf issues even qualify as a defect under the Lemon Law! Perhaps we need specific EV legislation to address Battery Capacity issues!
Right, this is becoming more and more apparent. Additionally, manufacturers should not be allowed to market any other range figure but what a standardized EPA test has determined. I'm sure that there are other things that might require proper disclosure, such as the effect of local climate on batteries. We have already seen that with the Prius, where owners in hot locales are getting half or third of the mileage out of their packs compared to more temperate areas. Mind you, the pack is often way past its warranty, yet some folks appear to be dissatisfied because they were not told upfront.

edatoakrun said:
And I would find this outcome quite possibly a much greater disappointment, a few years from now, than if my LEAF loses capacity somewhat faster than I expected, when I bought it.
Well said. While I share your concerns, I'm a bit more hopeful that this can be resolved with a constructive approach from all sides.

OrientExpress said:
While I am not a "tool" of Nissan, I do understand how the process of resolving an issue such as this works, and again I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.
I don't know if I'm the only one who appreciates your experience with auto manufacturers. That said, I don't see a reason to insult forum contributors just to get the message across.
 
edatoakrun said:
I am most concerned that Nissan might alter future BEV sales plans, after concluding that American BEV buyers simply are incapable of understanding the trade-offs, in battery life, and battery use, of vehicle batteries, and cannot exercise judgement in their driving and charging habits, to get their own particular optimum use from their batteries.

Nissan and other BEV manufactures may even move to "idiot-proof" future EV designs for the American market, and take much the same approach GM did with the Volt.
You can't expect buyers to own up to a complicated charging process and driving habits if you don't provide them with enough information in the owner's manual to teach them how to do it right in the first place. If Nissan starts out by treating owners like idiots, then idiot-proofing becomes necessary. You reap what you sow.

Having said that, idiot-proofing is almost necessary when it comes to selling cars. And I don't think it's limited to just the American market. Human nature is the same everywhere.
 
agree with edatoakrun and others.
If fact, I encourage everyone to go and read what Ed said about smart EV driving and the downside of NIssan concluding that Americans are too dumb to handle the truth about their batteries.
I prefer the choice of a economical alternative that fits my situation; no heated wheel, no heated seats, no AC or water-based TMS for the battery.

I dont buy snow tires and dont need four-wheel drive as I dont drive in the snow and dont drive off road.
I dont need a pickup bed for hauling rocks, so dont have a pickup truck.

That, of course, doesnt obviate the need for clarity from Nissan about the battery up and down sides.
 
TonyWilliams said:
OrientExpress said:
Well granted this owners group does seem to have a few more very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners than other marques :D , but on the whole, they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.

You appear to be a doctor now, making a diagnosis. Listen, obviously MOST LEAF owners don't know or care about something that doesn't affect them directly. That's the human existence. You're a good example. You have your car that is working well for you, and you're obviously happy with it, and it's just tough doo doo for those that don't have the same.


Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done.

Thank you for being the "tool" that every forum needs. I'd recommend putting me on your ignore list, because you are an absolute waste of internet space.


Sweet, I will bring the Popcorn , this will be a great show :mrgreen:
 
OrientExpress said:
But still, essentially all of the options that are available to any vehicle owner that are dissatisfied with their car are on the table for LEAF owners.

They can:
Let the manufacturer fix the problem
They can sell or trade-in the car for another one
They can take advantage of their states Lemon Law statutes to recover a pro-rated amount of their investment in the car
They can attempt litigation

While I am not a "tool" of Nissan, I do understand how the process of resolving an issue such as this works, and again I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.

Rational thought. Thanks. Yes, this thread covers all that, and I've summarized those issues in the first post.
 
spike09 said:
It took them over a month to come up with a fix for a serious safety issue.
Many think there is no comparison to how GM has handled "problems" compared to NISSAN. It was a lab test of a 20 MPH side pole impact in a specific area and happened 3 weeks later in a bone yard and only after manually rotating the vehicle. Karma situations are a different situation altogether -- no crash even. See NHTSAs comments below. Many never got the battery tunnel enh done. I had it done when I got my tires rotated in case it comes up in 10 years if I sell it. It was done promptly and I was given a free rental. The Volt is my first Chevrolet product and GM has impressed me in many ways.

In describing the incident, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration stated:

"NHTSA has concluded that the crash test damaged the Volt's lithium ion battery and that the damage led to a vehicle fire that took several weeks to develop after the test was completed. That incident—which occurred at the test facility and caused property damage but no injuries—remains the only case of a battery-related fire in a crash or crash test of vehicles powered by lithium-ion batteries, despite a number of other rigorous crash tests of the Chevy Volt separately conducted by both NHTSA and General Motors."

The NHTSA then released this statement regarding the safety of electric vehicles:

"Based on the available data, NHTSA does not believe the Volt or other electric vehicles are at a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicles. In fact, all vehicles—both electric and gasoline-powered—have some risk of fire in the event of a serious crash. As manufacturers continue to develop vehicles of any kind—electric, gasoline, or diesel—it is critical that they take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of drivers and first responders both during and after a crash."

I hope Nissan comes through "quickly" because the masses will equate these shortened battery life issues with all *EVs and that's good for no one.
 
Ed, the problems here have nothing to do with battery care and/or charging. We've already established that with facts. Please stop beating a dead horse.
Somewhat faster??? Surely you jest. Losing as much range as a lot of 2 and 3 bar losers have is much more than "somewhat faster."
 
surfingslovak said:
spike09 said:
It does not seem the Leaf issues even qualify as a defect under the Lemon Law! Perhaps we need specific EV legislation to address Battery Capacity issues!
Right, this is becoming more and more apparent. Additionally, manufacturers should not be allowed to market any other range figure but what a standardized EPA test has determined. I'm sure that there are other things that might require proper disclosure, such as the effect of local climate on batteries.

I'm confident that every LEAF owner who tried their state's Lemon Law for specifically battery capacity (with the LEAF, not a Volt or other EV's with capacity warranties) will lose. Warranty says not covered, end of story.

That is why I suggest that the battery not be addressed at all in such a forum. We, as consumers, don't care what a battery is doing, any more than we care how a camshaft works. What is not disclosed by Nissan to consumers is hot areas, like Phoenix, is that the PERFORMANCE of the vehicle will permanently degrade the RANGE of the vehicle at a rate FAR greater than those in temperate climates, like San Francisco, Seattle and San Diego. Notice that I said RANGE and PERFORMANCE.

Obviously, this angle does not guarantee much, either. The end solution will have to be legislation to protect consumers from companies like Nissan.

First, somebody must ask themselves what their end game is. For me, I want to see EVs succeed, and soon. Nissan could quite conceivably put a really big dent in that movement, or just make it a speed bump. This issue really is that pivotal, in my opinion.

For individual consumers, if you just want your money back, I'd probably start as simply as calling and seeing if you can turn it in. Apparently, Nissan will take back leases under certain parameters. You don't even need to get into the range or batteries. Just tell them it doesn't work for you. Try CarMax for your owned vehicle, as I did.

If those don't work, your state's Lemon Law is cheap to use. Even if you lose, there's not much lost except some of your time. Then you get into the legal areas, and those are generally individual suits or class action. Believe me, there are lawyers circling for either of these.

Lastly, is Nissan fixes your car to your satisfaction.
 
May be some of those people with "dogs in the hunt" will be proven right but with ambient temps in the high 100s, by the time a fix (or excuse) is given, all of the "dogs" will be dead. There's a reason they don't have fox hunts in the desert southwest, the fox (in this case Nissan) would always get away.
 
Back
Top