Opinions: Leasing Batteries

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wxxyz

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
509
What are your thoughts on Leasing the batteries from Nissan for the Leaf?
 
It's a tough call.

On the one hand you think, after 5 years I won't even own the batteries! But on the other hand you realize that in 5 years the batteries need to be replaced anyways.
 
I don't like the idea at all... it's just one more thing you have to pay for monthly. Why not build it into the cost of the vehicle so when you buy the Nissan Leaf, you actually get a complete working model? Not some shell that's useless until you lease the batteries!
 
evguy said:
I don't like the idea at all... it's just one more thing you have to pay for monthly. Why not build it into the cost of the vehicle so when you buy the Nissan Leaf, you actually get a complete working model? Not some shell that's useless until you lease the batteries!

That's exactly it... another thing to pay for monthly... most people take a loan to buy a car and have payments for years, so what if you're leasing the batteries? The monthly payment of the Nissan Leaf PLUS BATTERIES is supposed to be less than the Chevy Volt anyway, so what difference does it make to them?
 
the real advantage to leasing the batteries is that at the end of the 5 years when the pack needs replacing, you take the car in, and you drive away with a fresh pack, at no cost (at the time).

Maybe what they should do is allow people to buy the batteries if they want, but still offer the elasing option as well. Then the people who buy the battery pay the $5000 in one chunk, and then in 5 years, pay another $5000 in one chunk. The battery leasers pay $75 a month for the rest of the cars life.

I guess if you didn't drive very much, like a little old couple who only goes out to get groceries once a week, then buyign the batteries would be a better option because the battery pack might actually last them 10 years...
 
I disagree with "prius". Leasing batteries is definitely not an option.
75 bucks per month for the rest of car's life??? :shock: Even if it was half of that, say 33 dollars per month, it's still another bill to pay for the rest of your life. Who wants that? :?
The idea of owning an EV is to have a car together with its batteries and forget about other expenses, have a peace of mind knowing that your biological footprint has been dramatically reduced because of your driving an EV. ;)
If we look at the rav4 EV's they are still rolling strong with their battery packs ever since they were made back in eighties...
If nissan can't make their EV's as durable as toyota's EV's in past with old technology than i will certainly pass the Leaf out altogether and wait for a better EV to hit the market.
All my friends disagreed about leasing the batteries and did so with disgust.
:(
 
Of course they disagreed with with Nissan and its possible inclination towards leasing the batteries to buyers of Leaf. Nissan must stop this nonsense right now so this rumor doesn't go too far. Or is it just a rumor???
 
The Leaf really does seem to be stressing its pack compared to most other EVs. They're clearing running at a high depth of discharge (DOD) and have a very simple pack cooling system, as well as allowing rapid charge. But they seem pretty confidence in their chemistry, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if they back it up with a warranty.

Note that your battery doesn't just die. You simply lose range. I seem to recall Nissan talking about 70-80% capacity in 10 years. GM is looking to warranty the Volt for 80% capacity in 10 years (GM seems to be taking the opposite tack and being overly conservative with their pack)
 
I may be in the minority, but I bought the car and am sticking with it. After 18 months, I've lost just a few percent capacity, according to my GID meter, so I am satisfied. I plan on keeping the car for a long while and my driving needs will not stretch the range, so I think I'm good to go for many years.....We'll see.......
 
debraredhead said:
My guess would be that everyone that bought the Leaf now wishes they had leased the battery.
Nope, still glad I bought. Of course, that could change in the next year or two, but with just over 5% capacity loss in the first year (per Gid count, could be less since Gids appear to vary re: how many wh each one represents) I am satisfied. However, so far I am disappointed in the way Nissan is handling the capacity loss problems in very hot climates.
 
Being from Phoenix, I'd rather lease the battery, of course.

But given that battery technology changes so fast, even if I were in a cooler climate, I'd still opt for leasing. Buying the battery means that you're going to be stuck with a battery that's going to be obsolete pretty soon.

If the battery charging management has been simpler, not having to worry about temperature, not having to avoid high and low SOC for battery longevity, not having to limit QC frequency, etc, then owning the battery may make more sense. But battery charging management right now is way too complicated to make it worth owning.

What about being stuck with yet another payment? I fail to see what the big deal is. If you're able to reduce the cost of the car by $13K and take this $13K and spread it out over a 10 year period, that's about $108 a month ($13K/120 months). By the 10th year, your battery is practically worthless anyway. So if you pay $108/month to lease the battery for 10 year, or pay $13K for it up front and junk it after 10 year, it's really the same thing. If you can pay less than this per month for a shorter (say 5 year) lease and are able to upgrade to a new pack that's twice the range in 5 years, that's even better.

The biggest hindrance to wide-spread acceptance of EVs right now is the price point. If we can take the major cost of the battery pack out of the car and reduce the price of the car by $13K (or whatever it is), then we'll make the EV prices look a lot more attractive and I would even bet competitive with ICE cars. Now the cost of leasing the battery plus the cost of electricity combined each month can simply be considered the cost of energy it takes to propel the EV. If this cost is lower than the cost of the gasoline it takes to propel the ICE car over the same distance, and I'm fairly confident it will be, then it's a no-brainer for the public to be inclined to pick the option that has lower cost of energy, which is the monthly battery lease plus the electricity cost. Of course we're ignoring the need for long range here, which a second ICE car owned by the family would solve.

Leasing also takes out the need to wait for the battery technology to become more mature before adoption. Without the risk of buying in too early into a soon obsolete battery technology, nobody really needs to wait anymore for the technology to be more mature. My car of 100 mile range can satisfy me now until 5 years later, at which time I don't have to buy a new car but yet can then enjoy 200 mile range battery next, and maybe 5 years later enjoy a 400 mile range battery by then, etc.

I think the success of the EV movement hinges on taking the cost of the battery out of the car equation, and move it into the energy equation. The battery cost needs to be treated as an expandable part of the fuel source, and not as a part of the car. Leasing enables this use model to be adopted more quickly with much less risk. And faster adoption means faster cost reduction, faster technology improvement, which leads to even faster adoption, spiraling into an ever increasing positive cycle.

If anything, it's better than the sorry state of the EV movement now, almost stalling barely after it's out of the gate, because of the high price point prohibiting wide spread adoption, and because of still immature battery technology when it comes to temperature sensitivity.

I would even propose that the federal government, instead of subsidizing the cost of the whole car with tax credit or rebate, subsidize only the cost of the battery lease instead. The public can afford to pay for the EV sans battery without any subsidy if it costs the same as an ICE counterpart, but the government can subsidize the cost of the battery lease to make sure that its total energy cost to operate is lower than the gasoline energy cost, thereby tipping the money scale so it becomes a no-brainer to switch to an EV financially.
 
Volusiano said:
<snip>

I would even propose that the federal government, instead of subsidizing the cost of the whole car with tax credit or rebate, subsidize only the cost of the battery lease instead. The public can afford to pay for the EV sans battery without any subsidy if it costs the same as an ICE counterpart, but the government can subsidize the cost of the battery lease to make sure that its total energy cost to operate is lower than the gasoline energy cost, thereby tipping the money scale so it becomes a no-brainer to switch to an EV financially.
Now there's some outside-the-box thinking. I've long been an advocate of battery leasing as the only way we'll get to widespread deployment of EVs anytime soon, but moving the subsidy (and it could be considerably less than the $7,500/car now) to just help with battery leasing costs seems like a terrific idea. It would need to be a straight rebate instead of a tax credit to get a buy-in by mainstream consumers. Not that it will happen with the makeup of the current or (almost certainly) next congress, but it's something to agitate for.
 
I don't see why they can't offer all 3 options:

1. Buy the car and buy the battery ($37,250 for SL and $35,200 for SV).
2. Lease the car and lease the battery (whatever the current lease term is).
3. Buy the car and lease the battery (MSRP - $15K = $22,250 for SL and $20,200 for SV, and whatever lease term for battery based on $15K MSRP for battery, assuming that the battery costs $15K).

When you look at option 3, the SL or SV pricing is now in the same range as their equivalent ICE cars, and the EV looks affordable.

As long as the monthly cost of the battery lease, plus the cost of electricity to operate the EV, is less than the monthly cost in gas to go the same distance, then the EV is the hands-down winner.

I've heard from a lot of folks on this forum who say that they can already save a couple of hundred bucks in gas easily each month with their EV. Even if their battery lease is $120/month and their electricity cost is $30/month, the combined energy cost of $150/month there is still well less than the $200 cost in gas each month.

But if you go with option 1 or 2, the price point for the EV looks awfully high up front and scares away a lot of people. But if you look at option 3, the price point all of a sudden looks much more affordable and comparable to ICE cars.

The battery shouldn't be part of the cost of the car. It makes more sense to treat it as part of the overall energy consumption cost and compare it that way against the gas consumption cost.
 
Volusiano said:
I don't see why they can't offer all 3 options:
...
3. Buy the car and lease the battery (MSRP - $15K = $22,250 for SL and $20,200 for SV, and whatever lease term for battery based on $15K MSRP for battery, assuming that the battery costs $15K).
I wasn't active on MNL when I originally heard the statement I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=209091#p209091" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
cwerdna said:
An EV enthusiast at Priuschat claimed (from http://priuschat.com/threads/nissan-leaf-checking-it-out-tonight.72340/page-4#post-1094194" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
It turns out that this is an illegal practice... to sell a car that requires a leased part to make it work.
Curious... is this true for the US or an urban legend?
Did anyone ever answer that question or was it discussed? Prior to the Leaf going on sale, I know that Ghosn and Nissan always kept talking about how the battery would be lease only.

I (and am sure many others have too) speculated that the original plans for leasing the battery were why Nissan thought it'd be ok to under-engineer battery thermal management. Then, perhaps once they found the idea was illegal or wouldn't fly, they didn't want to have a big delay, so they decided launch anyway.
 
I was always a fan of battery leasing...even more for battery swap. Talk about a great way to future proof the car. If I could turn in a battery at the end of a lease, and lease a new one, there's no reason that the car couldn't last a long, long time. As it is, I leased the whole car (only the second time in my life) to protect myself and I'm coming to the sad conclusion that I'll end up turning it in. :( Unless Nissan can pull a rabbit out of their hat and solve the degradation issue...
 
i have to go with Sloaty, Randy and thousands others in that i already knew coming in that degradation would happen and i knew that when it did whether it was 18 days, 18 weeks or 18 months, someone would be unhappy.

but i also did this by "reverse buying" in that i took a LEAF with a 70% capacity and asked myself; can i make this work? (mind you i had driven a10-20 mile range EV 14,500 miles over 3½ years) and the answer was a resounding yes. this car has become the best thing i have ever done without question.

right now i am losing range. last full GID count was 268 and global warming has finally come to the Pacific Northwest. we are expecting record highs on Thurs in the mid to upper 90's so battery degradation here i come but am i gonna hide my car in the shade? start worrying today about an issue that i dont expect to affect me for another 3-4 years? no. because i have been there, done that and guess what? most of the time, i was worried about nothing. a lot of stress for nothing. changes in plans that basically hurt me to some degree because i jumped the gun, thought i knew more than the people who designed it.

now, its not all glass here. i know enough to know that there is a major disconnect between engineering, marketing and sales. (ask any engineer who was on the EV 1 project!) and the issues we are seeing now i am pretty sure Nissan knows about it, was warned about it from engineering, but marketing mitigated the risks for some sort of long term sales goal. does this explain the 200,000 unit battery plant to supply a 150,000 unit car plant? maybe.

Can we think that Nissan's way of replacing the maintenance profits was a modified battery replacement warranty plan similar to Tesla's? maybe.

can we think that Nissan is willing to risk the 4 Billion dollar investment to get to the forefront of EV tech over a few hundred battery packs? that is doubtful but lets examine that.

Nissan could be opening Pandora's box by replacing packs. it could allow someone in OR who simply drives a lot who has racked up 45,000 miles in two years and is seeing 15-20% degradation and is expecting a new battery pack. well, hate to say it, but the value of any car, no matter what the drive train is greatly affected by mileage. get much more over a standardized 15,000 miles a year and each mile comes with a large deduction in value... so that is one thing that might hold Nissan up

or

Nissan replaces packs on low mileage vehicles at no or little cost and for a prorated cost on higher mileage vehicles. after the TN plant is running and supplying extra packs. the real cost to Nissan would be very small compared to the amount of goodwill this would create among the EV community.

without #'s on costs, its tough to run a cost analysis but maybe a program that builds in the cost of pack replacements every 3 years for 20-40% of the LEAFs is cheaper than installing active temp controls on 100% of the vehicles especially when a newer chemistry with completely different needs and requirements might be just around the corner.

its all speculation but i have been in customer service for a long time and i know the impact of media frenzy over the tiniest of issues and maybe i work for a company that is more thoughtful and generous to its clients (i can ASSURE you, that is NOT the case!!) but it is standard policy to give up hundreds of thousands today in order to increase the odds of millions of dollars tomorrow. granted all companies are different and current profitability obviously plays a part, so i fully expect a much clearer picture of Nissan's stance in all this within the next 2 months.

one parting shot; in all this, i am constantly thinking about what could have been done better and it always comes back to Nissan's huge commitment verses tons of promises from vendors, governments, agencies, etc all falling way way short on their promises. Nissan is really stuck out there without a net. public charging is nowhere near where it was portrayed to be in my area (i live in an area that has 2nd highest density of charging behind OR BUT our states population is not as one-sided as OR's so in real terms we have more charging than they do) and my area is ahead of most of the country.

now will DCFCs every mile lessen our expectations of Nissan? probably not. but i have to say, if i had to trade, i would gladly take the DCFCs
 
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