Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

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surfingslovak said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
interesting chart but i see a glaring issue with Minneapolis being warmer than Seattle. they are significantly colder making them significantly hotter in Summer and i think an analysis of sustained average temperature ranges is going to provide more accurate results.
Thanks for your comment, Dave. If you've read lukati's post above, you would see that this is exactly how it was done. There is not a lot of publicly available data out there, and we ended up sourcing temperature profiles from the same website. See further below to get an idea of how the profiles for Minneapolis and Seattle look like.

While we certainly can debate the validity of this data, I'm confident about the value I calculated for Minneapolis. It's within a degree or two of an empirically measured effective isothermal temperature published in a recent NREL study. It's so close that it can't be a coincidence.

As I said earlier, while I enjoy reading all comments on this board, I don't always agree with them. Especially if they are not based on hard data and models we can all compare against field data. Aside from Minneapolis and Seattle, this model predicts that both Hawaii and Florida are pretty hard on batteries. It should be interesting to see if and when we will get the first reports of lost capacity from there.

I don't mean to criticize, since you have a lot of EV experience, but I believe that we need to move away from a gut-feel approach to something more material and comprehensible to new EV owners. Tony demonstrated how it's done with his range chart. It's easily understood and very valuable. I wish Nissan came up with that, instead of their weasel response that "there is an infinite number of range scenarios".

Although there definitely is a nearly infinite number of temperature profiles and microclimates, I believe that it's important to come up with an easily understood chart that will give new owners an idea of the severity of the climate they live in. It would be good to have an assessment how well EV batteries will do in your climate before making a purchase.


Seattle Temperature Profile

SEAtempprofile



Minneapolis Temperature Profile

MNtempprofile


you are right, i did miss the post and the charts you have provided are exactly what is needed
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
you are right, i did miss the post and the charts you have provided are exactly what is needed
Oh, great to hear! I shared the underlying spreadsheet, if you were interested in more detail.

Note that the temperature distribution percentages are not accurate. I wonder how lukati got his numbers from that site, I only found a fairly time-consuming method of extracting that info from the image directly. Ideally, we would have this data available in a tabulated form and properly dated as well.

TonyWilliams said:
If I were the Nissan legal team, I'd start polishing my defense based on this !!!!
Ha! Who says that they are not? ;-)

Should they invest any time into this, I hope that we will get a chart outlining the severity of climates in all major metropolitan areas in the US. That and the relative change from 2010, when Nissan was apparently conducting the bulk of their hot weather testing.
1
 
just finished an experimental charge (we have soooo little opportunity for any heat related experiments here...) in an attempt to see the magnitude of adjustments possible due to heat. a temporary change in work schedule also helped a lot as well

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=220273#p220273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
just finished an experimental charge (we have soooo little opportunity for any heat related experiments here...) in an attempt to see the magnitude of adjustments possible due to heat. a temporary change in work schedule also helped a lot as well

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=220273#p220273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hm, I was getting 266 couple of weeks ago at 14K miles. I loaned out my Gid meter, but I hope to get a fresh reading this week.
 
surfingslovak said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
just finished an experimental charge (we have soooo little opportunity for any heat related experiments here...) in an attempt to see the magnitude of adjustments possible due to heat. a temporary change in work schedule also helped a lot as well

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=220273#p220273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hmm, I was getting 266 couple of weeks ago. I loaned out my Gid meter, but I hope to get a fresh reading this week.

ya, i have had 8 GID readings all 275 or 276 and one 277. all those charges at night, temps upper 50's to mid 60's and 5 TBs.

this time, i parked car in garage with door open knowing the Sun would shine on back of car. left temp probe sitting under car with temp gauge (has inside/outside gauge) on side of car protected from Sun 36 inches off the ground. temps between two were either same or a degree apart. parked car this morning, temps was 22C but as soon as Sun came over the trees, temps went to 29C rapidly before settling at 31C for the last hour or so. LEAF did have 6 TBs so guessing pack had to be in the mid 80's or so
 
surfingslovak said:
Note that the temperature distribution percentages are not accurate. I wonder how lukati got his numbers from that site, I only found a fairly time-consuming method of extracting that info from the image directly. Ideally, we would have this data available in a tabulated form and properly dated as well.
I got the percentages the old-fashioned way: integration through weighing! I magnified the chart and printed it out, then cut the respective temperature bands out and measured their weight on a high-precision (0.0001g) balance. Not the kind of thing you want to do for dozens of locations. ;)

What we need are temperature-frequency tables for different locations. NOAA has that kind of information, but they make you pay for it. The only free such information I have been able to find was specific for a single state. http://www.cemp.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cemp_stations.pl?stn=boul&prod=12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
lukati said:
I got the percentages the old-fashioned way: integration through weighing! I magnified the chart and printed it out, then cut the respective temperature bands out and measured their weight on a high-precision (0.0001g) balance. Not the kind of thing you want to do for dozens of locations. ;)
Ha, nice! I used Photoshop to separate temperature bands by color and ... to count pixels ;-)

lukati said:
What we need are temperature-frequency tables for different locations. NOAA has that kind of information, but they make you pay for it. The only free such information I have been able to find was specific for a single location. http://www.cemp.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cemp_stations.pl?stn=boul&prod=12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's really cool! I worked on mobile weather apps in the past, we used to have custom data feeds from several vendors. I will see if I can get anything.
 
lukati said:
...The temperature resolution is quite poor. The temperature bands are frigid (<15F), freezing (15F-32F), cold (32F-50F), cool (50F-65F), comfortable (65F-75F), warm (75F-85F), hot (85F-100F), and sweltering (>100F). For all bands I took the average temperature in the band and I assumed 10F for frigid and 105F for sweltering. ...

If my experience with Tempe residents is any gauge,
110 = "warm"
115 = "hot"

I'm not sure they would ever admit to "sweltering". :lol:
 
Nubo said:
lukati said:
...The temperature resolution is quite poor. The temperature bands are frigid (<15F), freezing (15F-32F), cold (32F-50F), cool (50F-65F), comfortable (65F-75F), warm (75F-85F), hot (85F-100F), and sweltering (>100F). For all bands I took the average temperature in the band and I assumed 10F for frigid and 105F for sweltering. ...

If my experience with Tempe residents is any gauge,
110 = "warm"
115 = "hot"

I'm not sure they would ever admit to "sweltering". :lol:

the gauge was made when 110 was unusual. those days are long gone
 
WetEV said:
...There was an excess of optimism, there is now an excess of pessimism. ...

Your post was well-thought and I hope you're right on this particular point.

Trouble is, this is exactly the worst aspect of the car to be having trouble with, as it represents the biggest area of distrust by the consumer. "What if the $15K battery dies early"... because in normal practice, that is usually what happens with consumer rechargeable battery packs. They die early deaths.

I'd read the article about lack of a TMS. I gave Nissan the benefit of the doubt on that one. But then the lack of warranty was an early red flag. At the dealer when asked about buying or leasing, that lack of warranty popped into my head and I chose to lease. "Trust but verify" :)

The worrisome aspect at this juncture is that the reported degradations are SO much worse than Nissan predicted, it makes one wonder just how bad it might get -- even in more temperate locales. And at this point I'm not inclined to give Nissan the benefit of the doubt in regards to degradation "flattening out".

Unfortunately Nissan is quickly losing the ambassadorship of the enthusiastic early-adopters.

I think they really need to step out in front of this in a big way, even if they don't yet have all the answers. And not a memo full of disclaimers and spin, but forthright statements and a major unwavering show of commitment, such as a retro-active warranty.

The clock is ticking.
 
Nubo said:
I think they really need to step out in front of this in a big way, even if they don't yet have all the answers. And not a memo full of disclaimers and spin, but forthright statements and a major unwavering show of commitment, such as a retro-active warranty.

The clock is ticking.

If Nissan was truly surprised to learn of battery issues (and let's be honest; EVERYBODY else knew there would be, including the vocal competition), then they are either incompetent or lying to us.

Decades of battery research by Nissan suggests the latter. Engineers at Nissan didn't likely sign off on this without some influence/pressure; somebody overrode their concerns (I recall Carlos suggesting engineers "never think it's ready") and marketing would have pulled the 100 mile (or 200km) BS right out of the tailpipe.

Then the legal department finds a way to make it stick. Hence, no warranty. Of course, not passing the known high heat / low longevity information on to consumers who haphazardly bought the car in Phoenix will be their ULTIMATE downfall.

Everybody should review the Honda hybrid case. They will fight this to the end, because losing or acquiescing is FAR too expensive. Remember the $1.9 billion they got to start this project; it's just about complete in Tennessee. Mission accomplished.
 
I've been visiting Sacramento and the temp pegged out at 111 F today. the AC in the house we are staying in can't keep up. the other night, at 9pm it was still 91F outside. This, IMHO, does not bode well for the Leaf without TMS and or a more robust battery and it's happening in quite a few places across quite a few states. I think it's time for Nissan to stop the press and find a fix before cranking out lots more cars to be sold in locals all across the south where it gets hot and may get even hotter in coming years, cars that ultimately will disappoint buyers in the not so long run.

Nubo said:
lukati said:
...The temperature resolution is quite poor. The temperature bands are frigid (<15F), freezing (15F-32F), cold (32F-50F), cool (50F-65F), comfortable (65F-75F), warm (75F-85F), hot (85F-100F), and sweltering (>100F). For all bands I took the average temperature in the band and I assumed 10F for frigid and 105F for sweltering. ...

If my experience with Tempe residents is any gauge,
110 = "warm"
115 = "hot"

I'm not sure they would ever admit to "sweltering". :lol:
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
I've been visiting Sacramento and the temp pegged out at 111 F today. the AC in the house we are staying in can't keep up. the other night, at 9pm it was still 91F outside. This, IMHO, does not bode well for the Leaf without TMS and or a more robust battery and it's happening in quite a few places across quite a few states. I think it's time for Nissan to stop the press and find a fix before cranking out lots more cars to be sold in locals all across the south where it gets hot and may get even hotter in coming years, cars that ultimately will disappoint buyers in the not so long run.
I dunno. I'm in Sacramento and this is now my second summer with my LEAF. While we don't get as hot as Pheonix, we get a few weeks a year well in excess of 100 and temperatures of 110 are not uncommon. No capacity bar loss so far (I don't have a gid meter)...
 
GeekEV said:
GaslessInSeattle said:
I've been visiting Sacramento and the temp pegged out at 111 F today. the AC in the house we are staying in can't keep up. the other night, at 9pm it was still 91F outside. This, IMHO, does not bode well for the Leaf without TMS and or a more robust battery and it's happening in quite a few places across quite a few states. I think it's time for Nissan to stop the press and find a fix before cranking out lots more cars to be sold in locals all across the south where it gets hot and may get even hotter in coming years, cars that ultimately will disappoint buyers in the not so long run.
I dunno. I'm in Sacramento and this is now my second summer with my LEAF. While we don't get as hot as Pheonix, we get a few weeks a year well in excess of 100 and temperatures of 110 are not uncommon. No capacity bar loss so far (I don't have a gid meter)...
I'll be interested to see if you make it through to fall (post Indian summer) without losing one.
 
TonyWilliams said:
If Nissan was truly surprised to learn of battery issues (and let's be honest; EVERYBODY else knew there would be, including the vocal competition), then they are either incompetent or lying to us.
Tony has been one of the strongest supporters of the LEAF and it is troubling to see the transformation in recent months. I should say that this is troubling for Nissan and it's fledgling EV enterprise because clearly, unlike GM (maybe it's really learned from the EV1 fallout), Nissan has not shown appropriate support for it's early adopters!
 
eHelmholtz said:
TonyWilliams said:
If Nissan was truly surprised to learn of battery issues (and let's be honest; EVERYBODY else knew there would be, including the vocal competition), then they are either incompetent or lying to us.
Tony has been one of the strongest supporters of the LEAF and it is troubling to see the transformation in recent months. I should say that this is troubling for Nissan and it's fledgling EV enterprise because clearly, unlike GM (maybe it's really learned from the EV1 fallout), Nissan has not shown appropriate support for it's early adopters!

The LEAF is a great car. Even with a screwed up battery pack, for those folks who travel 30 miles or less, I suspect it will be great for a LONG time. Just lease it, don't buy !!!!!

I personally just can't get past the fact that this "train wreck" was virtually preordained. Dumb, dumb, dumb. With everything known about the battery now (and when Nissan released the car), why sell ANY in Arizona or Texas? They would have done quite well just selling the things on the USA west coast.

The battery is the bedrock. It's what everybody asks about. Just a month or two ago, I suggested my aunt in Phoenix get a LEAF. Wow, do I feel stupid calling up telling her that might be such a good idea now, with the current status and likely Nissan "fixes" to "normal" batteries.

I get to tell my Teabagging relatives how Nissan got tons of government money, just like Ecotality, to produce poor designed products. George Bush couldn't have done it better with Iraq; I believed that there must be WMD, and felt pretty stupid after finding the truth.

We've been lied to, and we will again in the future.
 
I was one of the first deliveries in Florida. I am now at 8 months and over 6K miles with no battery capacity or range loss. I live in Miami and charge to 100% every two to three days. My battery temp is 6 bars.

The temperature in South Florida is pretty consistent, day or night, year-round. The humidity is also consistent (high). I assume the lack of variation in this sub-tropical enviornment is a positive factors for the longevity of my battery pack.
 
TonyWilliams said:
eHelmholtz said:
TonyWilliams said:
If Nissan was truly surprised to learn of battery issues (and let's be honest; EVERYBODY else knew there would be, including the vocal competition), then they are either incompetent or lying to us.
Tony has been one of the strongest supporters of the LEAF and it is troubling to see the transformation in recent months. I should say that this is troubling for Nissan and it's fledgling EV enterprise because clearly, unlike GM (maybe it's really learned from the EV1 fallout), Nissan has not shown appropriate support for it's early adopters!

The LEAF is a great car. Even with a screwed up battery pack, for those folks who travel 30 miles or less, I suspect it will be great for a LONG time. Just lease it, don't buy !!!!!

I personally just can't get past the fact that this "train wreck" was virtually preordained. Dumb, dumb, dumb. With everything known about the battery now (and when Nissan released the car), why sell ANY in Arizona or Texas? They would have done quite well just selling the things on the USA west coast.

The battery is the bedrock. It's what everybody asks about. Just a month or two ago, I suggested my aunt in Phoenix get a LEAF. Wow, do I feel stupid calling up telling her that might be such a good idea now, with the current status and likely Nissan "fixes" to "normal" batteries.

I get to tell my Teabagging relatives how Nissan got tons of government money, just like Ecotality, to produce poor designed products. George Bush couldn't have done it better with Iraq; I believed that there must be WMD, and felt pretty stupid after finding the truth.

We've been lied to, and we will again in the future.

Don't single it down to the West Coast... the car would have been good on both coasts... just not those middle areas where Satan lives. :D
 
TonyWilliams said:
I get to tell my Teabagging relatives how Nissan got tons of government money, just like Ecotality, to produce poor designed products. George Bush couldn't have done it better with Iraq; I believed that there must be WMD, and felt pretty stupid after finding the truth.

We've been lied to, and we will again in the future.

tony,
you are in great danger of jumping the shark here.
you are writing so fast and furiously that you are making logic and grammar mistakes.
please take a breath. it is not your responsibility to personally drive this situation with repetitive post after post after post.

equating this with the WMD and war with Iraq is just too much.
please.
 
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