Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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edatoakrun said:
"TonyWilliams"...So, is that the problem with my battery (and not mentioned in the owner's manual)?...

Tony, you are the only LEAF owner anywhere (AFAIK) who, through careful planning, intentionally subjected your battery to charge levels below VLBW dozens (or hundreds? Please report) of times.

Over 20 times at Turtle, shutdown 3 or 4 times, VLB many, many times, perhaps 100 or more.

edatoakrun said:
Should Nissan now be responsible for not anticipating your behavior, in the owner's manual?

Let's see, if I drive my Nissan gasoline car to empty, is there damage? Are there warnings in the owner's manual? Are there warranty disclaimers for such activity?

No. Nor is there for the LEAF. How you suspect the consumer should just magically know that there might be a problem, well, we just disagree.

Heres a news flash: there are now several (some not reported here) coastal climate LEAFs that never hit VLB or turtle, or left at 100% charge for appreciable lengths of time, or Quick Charged, which have significantly lower miles then mine and actually have lower Gid counts than my car did last week. My point is that while you're busy blaming me, I don't believe that anything I did comes close to the impact of the preexisting LEAF's battery design on degradation.

But, let's get my car out of the equation. I predict that the future will be FULL of similar cars as described above with one or more capacity bars missing.

edatoakrun said:
I think it's very unfortunate, that after subjecting your LEAFs battery to these conditions, you sold it, without disclosing your knowledge of its past abuse, and your suspicions of the level of battery degradation, to a new buyer. Now we may never know what the results of your past behavior will be, on this LEAFs future battery capacity. Continued reports on this LEAFs future battery capacity, would be very valuable information, IMO.

So, I should "take one for the team"? I've done plenty of that. My car was sold with a fresh battery report from Nissan, reporting all 5 stars. Any degradation is normal; just ask Nissan. It's so normal that it's not even covered by warranty. My operation of the vehicle was wholly within the specified limits of the car. Being smart enough to understand that when there are HUNDREDS / THOUSANDS of missing capacity bar LEAFs, the market will tank on used car value. Plus, the car didn't meet my mission anymore with its current reduced, but "normal" range autonomy.

Should somebody buy serial number 2244, it's a great car that will no doubt work just fine for most folks driving within its range limits.
 
OrientExpress said:
Vicki, has your car lost a bar or have diminished range?

Bars aren't lost until 15% loss, so no, no bar loss yet. As far as diminished range... I don't know because I did not get the car new. I purchased it just 1.5 months ago, it was pre-owned by Hertz as a fleet car (which was never leased, so they auctioned it off). I haven't yet done a 100% to VLBW (or turtle) because I'm chicken. :) But as a baseline for my own period of ownership, it's probably a good idea if I did.
 
edatoakrun said:
TickTock said:
Just got my car back too. Was told my capacity was read to be 87% which is also 10% higher then my own repeatable and cross-checked measurements. Only rational explanation I can come up with is they keep seasonal variation separate and are able to distinguish that from permanent degradation. Maybe they cold soaked the battery and ran the test - we'll find out in a few months, I guess.

My capacity bars, also, were reset so I am now showing 12 bars capacity again.

Indicating, perhaps, that a larger part of your LEAF's reduced capacity was due to seasonal variations (rather than permanent degradation) than for those LEAFs that come back with the same number of capacity bars?

Please update your spreadsheet, and add the after-the-check figures also, as soon as you get some.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dHNwVmRkNkFnaEVOQTVENW5mOTZlb0E&pli=1#gid=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting. My first 80% charge since getting the car back was 12% *higher* than what I was getting before handing the car over for evaluation. So their 87% assessment is pretty close to my own post-eval assessment. I will do a turtle to 100% test as soon as possible (probably on the weekend). I was on vacation prior to handing the car over so it sat at ~60% for 2 weeks before going [Edit]the Nissan Maricopa testing facility[/Edit] for 10 days. Perhaps all the battery needed was a good vacation. :)
 
How do we get our Capacity Bars reset???...could this indicate the Testers in Casa Grande dowloaded new software to fix the capaciy loss issue...anybody have thoughts on how the Testers could have added capacity bars back on?
 
dsh said:
How do we get our Capacity Bars reset???...could this indicate the Testers in Casa Grande dowloaded new software to fix the capaciy loss issue...anybody have thoughts on how the Testers could have added capacity bars back on?

I just heard back from Scott Yarosh, who just got his car back from Casa Grande after two weeks. He was down 3 bars and still is. They told him nothing.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Let's see, if I drive my Nissan gasoline car to empty, is there damage? Are there warnings in the owner's manual? Are there warranty disclaimers for such activity?

No. Nor is there for the LEAF. How you suspect the consumer should just magically know that there might be a problem, well, we just disagree.

Heres a news flash: there are now several (some not reported here) coastal climate LEAFs that never hit VLB or turtle, or left at 100% charge for appreciable lengths of time, or Quick Charged, which have significantly lower miles then mine and actually have lower Gid counts than my car did last week. My point is that while you're busy blaming me, I don't believe that anything I did comes close to the impact of the preexisting LEAF's battery design on degradation.

I agree. Lots of posts describe the last two charge level bars as the "red" zone when reality it is just the capacity bars that have a red indication.
I don't see running to VLBW as any more harmful as charging to 100%. This is all normal and expected use.
 
TickTock, can you confirm you were down 2 capacity bars, and now since getting vehicle back from Casa Grande, you are back to 12? If this is the case, anybody have any answers how TickTock got the capacity back from 10 to 12 bars????
 
This is the full report from Scott.

Just got back for picking up my car. Here is the info the the Service Advisor told me. Surprise, surprise, it sounded very familiar.

My car test at 85% capacity remaining.

Nissan is compiling the data they collect from all 11 of the highest
loss cars that were sent to Casa Grande.

No word on when, or if I will get a copy of the tests they ran, or the results.

They completely removed my battery pack for bench testing.

My car was driven 24 miles total from drop off - to pick up.

The dealership did test for the difference between the Lowest Cell
Voltage and the Highest Cell Voltage before sending the car to Casa Grande. (When I asked for the results of that test, I was told by the Leaf Tech that he no longer had access to the data in his computer system and the printouts were sent to Casa Grande with the car. However, he did have a copy of his email to Nissan NA that had the results.)
“The highest cell 32@4010mV and the lowest cell 20@3992mV” 18mV difference

I did get my car detailed!

I still have 3 bars missing, 48 miles on the Mileage Guess-O-Meter,
with AC @ 100% charge. The car said it was 88 degrees when I picked it up, 93 when I got home.
 
TickTock said:
edatoakrun said:
TickTock said:
Just got my car back too. Was told my capacity was read to be 87% which is also 10% higher then my own repeatable and cross-checked measurements.

Interesting. My first 80% charge since getting the car back was 12% *higher* than what I was getting before handing the car over for evaluation. So their 87% assessment is pretty close to my own post-eval assessment.

Please confirm that the 12% higher is the Gid count, and not some other abstract. Sounds like they swapped a few cell modules.
 
New poster here (although I have followed site since inseption), so please be gentle. Lost a capacity bar on 8/3/12. Took it in for 1 year battery check up and told all O.K. (all 5 stars). Called Nissan (no-gas #) and was given a case # and told how to be more proactive about battery loss (very nice person but no idea about the fact how hot it gets in the Palm Springs area, hotter most days that Phoenix). I believe that Nissan has underestimated the impact of the temps on the batteries as do most of you. Info for wiki: vin#-6877, date of loss-8/3/12, mileage-9570, mfg date-6/11, purchase date-8/11, case #9137890, never quick charged or used L2-always L1 to 100%.

Decided to submit a complaint with NHTSA (no this isn't just a place for safety concerns, they also investigate defects in cars from power windows to heaters and such). I consider this issue to be a defect. If the cars in hot weather climates do not perform as well as the cars in other climates (and we were not told of this), that is a defect. As far as the comments of time left at high SOC, 100% vs 80% charge, QCs per week and all, Nissan has given me a report card (battery test) that shows 5 stars across the board. Their indications to me is that I am doing everything to spec and above (when I used to get all As in school, I usually passed the class). Complaint #10469729, submitted on 8/8/12, will be available to view in 72 hrs. I do think this a step everyone who has had capacity bar loss should take (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Also, submitted an inquiry to Consumer Reports on 8/8/12 with the same concerns. If this a car they are going to review, they should investigate it completely, and this is also a form I would suggest everyone fill out (http://custhelp.consumerreports.org/app/ask" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). This can be a little confusing (in fourth line click on Non-Consumer Reports product or services, click again for Share an experience and then click again on Defective but non hazardous).
 
ALLWATZ said:
New poster here (although I have followed site since inseption), so please be gentle. Lost a capacity bar on 8/3/12. Took it in for 1 year battery check up and told all O.K. (all 5 stars). Called Nissan (no-gas #) and was given a case # and told how to be more proactive about battery loss (very nice person but no idea about the fact how hot it gets in the Palm Springs area, hotter most days that Phoenix). I believe that Nissan has underestimated the impact of the temps on the batteries as do most of you. Info for wiki: vin#-6877, date of loss-8/3/12, mileage-9570, mfg date-6/11, purchase date-8/11, case #9137890, never quick charged or used L2-always L1 to 100%.

Decided to submit a complaint with NHTSA (no this isn't just a place for safety concerns, they also investigate defects in cars from power windows to heaters and such). I consider this issue to be a defect. If the cars in hot weather climates do not perform as well as the cars in other climates (and we were not told of this), that is a defect. As far as the comments of time left at high SOC, 100% vs 80% charge, QCs per week and all, Nissan has given me a report card (battery test) that shows 5 stars across the board. Their indications to me is that I am doing everything to spec and above (when I used to get all As in school, I usually passed the class). Complaint #10469729, submitted on 8/8/12, will be available to view in 72 hrs. I do think this a step everyone who has had capacity bar loss should take (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Also, submitted an inquiry to Consumer Reports on 8/8/12 with the same concerns. If this a car they are going to review, they should investigate it completely, and this is also a form I would suggest everyone fill out (http://custhelp.consumerreports.org/app/ask" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). This can be a little confusing (in fourth line click on Non-Consumer Reports product or services, click again for Share an experience and then click again on Defective but non hazardous).

Thanks ALLWATZ, your info has been added to the Wiki.
 
ALLWATZ said:
Decided to submit a complaint with NHTSA (no this isn't just a place for safety concerns, they also investigate defects in cars from power windows to heaters and such). I consider this issue to be a defect.
...
I do think this a step everyone who has had capacity bar loss should take (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
As much as I think complaints should be submitted (to the proper place), I don't think NHTSA is the right place to submit capacity loss complaints. When you click on "Begin online form", you're taken to https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which has a title "File a Vehicle Safety Complaint".

If you have something to the contrary on safercar.gov or NHTSA's site that says something to the contrary, please post the URL.
 
New Question....For LEAF owners who charge to 80% regularly...how many miles does does your dashboard read when you first start out driving the car after the charge... 80 miles, 75 miles available? Curious to find out.
 
dsh said:
New Question....For LEAF owners who charge to 80% regularly...how many miles does does your dashboard read when you start out driving the car... 80 miles, 75 miles available? Curious to find out.

I always charge to 80%, and for the first 10 months I got 10 bars and 83 on GOM. Now I get 9 bars and 75 on GOM. I know where this is heading...
 
I have been getting the "11 of 12" email these past two days. I see a 3 bar loss in my future. It's been hella hot today though. I'm sure that is bringing the average GID count down.
 
Interesting...I am down 2 Capacity Bars, use L1 Charger and charge to 80% and when I first start vehicle, my battery available charge guage states 12 bars, and in ECO mode I start out with 75-81 miles.
 
dsh said:
Interesting...I am down 2 Capacity Bars, use L1 Charger and charge to 80% and when I first start vehicle, my battery charge states 12 bars, and in ECO mode I start out with 75-81 miles.

If you have 12 battery bars, then you didn't charge to 80%.
 
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