Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

QueenBee said:

AFAIK ECU's are generally located inside the cabin, not to say that they don't get hot though. If the LEAFs microprocessors/etc. were getting too hot I would expect random glitches, error codes being thrown, rebooting, lock ups, failed components, etc. Not batteries degrading quicker than expected.

If you want to start speculating on software being the cause of the battery issues a more likely scenario is that either the the design parameters themselves did not protect the battery from heat enough or bug(s) in the software caused things to not operate as designed and thus failed to protect the battery.

Also, modern advice on data centers is to raise the thermostat: http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/10/14/google-raise-your-data-center-temperature/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Data centers are trying to raise the thermostat, to save money, you are correct. The new 12th Gen Dells can operate in 98 degrees and see no degradation. This in itself is a marvel and most servers can usually only tolerate the mid 80s. The issue with raising it all at once is that you have to replace the old servers first which costs money too.

OrientExpress said:

I got a chance to review this Wiki list today, and noticed that the most important piece of data for each entry is missing. Having the original delivery date is a very important piece of data for trend analysis. That data is not included in the lists.

I would highly recommend that this field be added, and then each entry updated.

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Not sure what the big deal is. The date of loss is reported, along with the months owned at loss. Can't you do simple math to figure out the original delivery date from there? Should be elementary math to figure that out.

By the way, the reason one would want to know the original delivery date is to compare it against date of loss, to see how many months owned at time of loss. That's the important parameter (months owned at loss), so it's not really necessary to display the original delivery date anyway. But if you must have it, add a new column and do the simple math to calculate it out.

TonyWilliams said:

Stoaty said:

RegGuheert said:

I've been thinking for some time that in a garage containing both a Volt and a LEAF that the Volt removes some heat from its battery and puts it in the garage where it will tend to heat up the LEAF battery. :evil:

OTOH, it is probably NOTHING compared with the amount of heat an ICE brings into a garage and dumps.

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And none of these can hold a candle to the heat from the big yellow orb in the sky over Phoenix.

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Curses!!! If we can just snuff that out, we're good to go.

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Oh, the things that stick in your memory. From Weekend Update, SNL, 1977, hosted by Ralph Nader (Musical guest George Benson plays "This Masquerade"):

Jane Curtin: Solar energy has become a controversial issue today because the oil industry sees it as a threat to their profits. This week, a Senate Select Committee on solar energy has been meeting in secret and, for more on this, here is Laraine Newman in the Capitol.

[Cut to Laraine with microphone in hand, standing in front of a closed door.]

Laraine Newman: Jane, I'm standing outside the committee room waiting for the session to break up. I think it's about to break up now. [The door opens and the pompous Mr. Rigg, an oil company executive, emerges to join Laraine] Oh, we're in luck, Jane. The chairman of the board of Texxon which dominates most of the oil industry, as you know, has just come out of the room. Mr. Rigg, did you attend the committee session?

Mr. Rigg [Ralph Nader]: Well, yes, the senators always allow me to sit in with them at their sessions.

Laraine Newman: Well, what happened in there?

Mr. Rigg: We -- that is, the Texxon Corporation -- said that we would be glad to go along with the solar energy program -- if the committee would only make three minor concessions to protect our investment.

Laraine Newman: I see. And what were those concessions?

Mr. Rigg: Texxon thinks it, first, should own the sun.

Laraine Newman: I see.

Mr. Rigg: We also need a Solar Depletion Tax Allowance -- since the sun depreciates over time.

Laraine Newman: Ah, that's two. And the third?

Mr. Rigg: And Texxon must have the right to order its prices raised whenever there is an eclipse.

Laraine Newman: Thank you. Uh, what next, Mr. Riggs?

Mr. Rigg: Texxon is about to consume all American solar, coal, oil, gas, geothermal firms. [standing stiffly at attention] Monopoly is patriotic!

Laraine Newman: [disenchanted] Ah. Thank you. This is Laraine Newman in the Capitol Building in Washington.

Oh no, I just added a 2nd Volt to the garage. The 2 of them are going to cook the heck out of the poor Leaf!

RegGuheert said:

I've been thinking for some time that in a garage containing both a Volt and a LEAF that the Volt removes some heat from its battery and puts it in the garage where it will tend to heat up the LEAF battery. :evil:

OTOH, it is probably NOTHING compared with the amount of heat an ICE brings into a garage and dumps.

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I called and reported my car today. I've lost 15-18% capacity (as measured in actual performance; not the insane GuessOmeter, CarWings, or other methods), however the car still has all 12 capacity bars. I expect that first 15% loss of capacity bar to disappear any day. I no longer own it.

Case # 9077839

Serial # 2244
25,344 miles
Reserved: April 20, 2010
Ordered: Sept 30, 2010
Built: March 25, 2011 in Japan
Shipped: April 25, 2011 to Long Beach, California via "Hoegh Inchon"
Arrived: at San Diego dealer May 2, 2011 (Mossy Nissan Poway)
Delivered: May 3, 2011 with 4.5 miles

The car was never exposed to exceptionally hot climates, and probably only saw temps over 90F a few times. It was never left at 100% charge for any length of time. For storage, it was left at 50%. It frequently used the entire capacity of its battery to complete 2000 miles per month. It experienced turtle mode about 20 times. It was DC fast charged 5 times or less, all but one of those times at a Nissan provided AeroVironment charger while at the "drive event" in Del Mar, California!!!!

Almost forgot that the annual battery report, completed July 2012, gave me all 5 stars!!!! It's great to know that their consumer oriented report doesn't even consider available capacity or battery degradation.

Nissan LEAF customer service:
Phone 877-664-2738
Press 1, 2, 457253
Representative: Paul Smith

Here is the result of my last drive in the car:

I drove in 75F / 23C temperature, with no significant wind (note 1), at somewhat above sea level elevation to about 580 feet / 180 meters elevation in small San Diego hills, and started and ended at my house at 580 feet elevation.

100% charge with balanced cells start
4.0 miles (6.5 km) per kWh at mostly freeway 60-65 mph (about 100 kph)
58 miles (94 km) to LBW
65 miles (105 km) to VLB (while returning to my house)

69 miles (112 km) projected range based on extensive testing with Range Chart development.

4 miles per kWh multiplied by 21 kWh of new battery available capacity = 84 miles (136 km) of new battery range.

The projected 69 miles that I drove is about 82% of expected performance with those specific driving conditions.

Note 1 - driving both directions tends to negate the impact of light wind. Wind over about 5-8 knots would need a small correction factor, even if driving both directions.

Good job reporting it, Tony. I fear I'll be in a similar scenario sooner than later, even with my similarly mild environment, lower mileage, and almost always 80% charges. I'm almost scared to do a full capacity test run again... ;-)

TonyWilliams said:

I called and reported my car today. I've lost 15-18% capacity, however the car still has all 12 capacity bars. I expect that first 15% loss of capacity bar to disappear any day. I no longer own it...

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What did you report to the buyer?

edatoakrun said:

TonyWilliams said:

I called and reported my car today. I've lost 15-18% capacity, however the car still has all 12 capacity bars. I expect that first 15% loss of capacity bar to disappear any day. I no longer own it...

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What did you report to the buyer?

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The buyer was Carmax, and I dutifully gave them the week old Nissan annual battery report. Five stars!!! I could follow up and mention that any battery degradation that a future owner may experience is perfectly normal, according to Nissan, so obviously no need to inform anybody about normal stuff. Plus, the car is under factory warranty for pretty much everything.... well, except capacity / range.

Honestly, they didn't ask. Or even know to ask. I wouldn't want to show up with the capacity bars missing, but there are at least two Phoenix LEAFs in the Carmax inventory that I know are missing capacity bar(s).

Carmax, and the entire used car industry, will learn about this issue soon enough.

When we sell a used ICE do we provide the buyer the current power output of the engine?

I think it is up to the buyer to check/ask about those questions. After all the car is well inside the warranty.

How many gids were you getting on a 80% and 100% charge, Tony?

edatoakrun said:

Yes, I've been wondering how practical ATM such as the Volt has, which many seem to think the LEAF might benefit from, would actually be, particularly in a well-insulated garage, during long-term storage in a Phoenix-like climate.

The more the ATM cycles the car's AC, the hotter the garage gets, the lower the efficiency of the heat exchanger, the more time the AC system needs to run, drawing even more kWh from the grid, the hotter the garage gets...

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I can't tell if you're serious about this, but if you're serious please consider that folks driving down a scorching hot Phoenix road in the middle of the day are using their AC and staying cool. The Volt's TMS is doing the same thing. Yes, eventually there is a temperature difference that cannot be overcome and lets say it's only good for a maximum cooling of 50F from ambient. It's still better to have something instead of nothing.

If there were two EV's sitting in a parking lot, would you rather have the one with the battery at 140F or the one with the TMS cooled battery 90F?

TonyWilliams said:

Carmax, and the entire used car industry, will learn about this issue soon enough.

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And it's not like Nissan dealers are going to be completely forthcoming when it comes to selling used LEAFs. The dealer, currently in possession of my first LEAF, is asking $2,000 more for it than I paid for it new.

Yes, you read that correctly... They want $2,000 more for an eight-month-old LEAF with 6,100 miles on it and a battery with questionable capacity, than for one of their new cars.


All LEAF buyers need a healthy dose of caveat emptor, right now.

Cheezmo said:

I just added a 2nd Volt to the garage.

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Congrats again!

Spies said:

I seem to recall in order for that first bar of the battery status indicator to disappear a sizable chunk of battery capacity would need to be lost. I can't seem to find at the moment what the first bar lost equates to. Anyone recall?

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Here's a chart from wiki, So the first is the largest % and less for each following bar.

The twelve smaller segments at far right of the battery gauge represents the battery's current maximum capacity. As the battery's capacity degrades, these bars disappear one by one. This table shows the approximate battery capacity represented by each bar [6]:
Segments Retained capacity (%) — Note
12 85 or more T12 —
11 85 T11 Value at which segment 12 turns OFF
10 78.75 T10 Value at which segment 11 turns OFF
9 72.5 T9 Value at which segment 10 turns OFF
8 66.25 T8 Value at which segment 9 turns OFF
7 60 T7 Value at which segment 8 turns OFF
6 53.75 T6 Value at which segment 7 turns OFF
5 47.5 T5 Value at which segment 6 turns OFF
4 41.25 T4 Value at which segment 5 turns OFF
3 35 T3 Value at which segment 4 turns OFF
2 28.75 T2 Value at which segment 3 turns OFF
1 22.5 T1 Value at which segment 2 turns OFF
0 16.25 T0 Value at which segment 1 turns OFF

...and another wilting Phoenician LEAF from the Facebook page:

David Ovienmhada, As of yesterday, I lost my 1st bar of capacity. 2012 Nissan Leaf SL, with 12,344 miles driven. In Phx, AZ.

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If that 2012 is, indeed, correct, is that the first 2012 to lose a bar?

Edit for a partial screenshot. Photobucket is acting funny with the uploads, but I'll clean up the image when I get a chance:

vegastar said:

How many gids were you getting on a 80% and 100% charge, Tony?

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About 240-ish at 100%.

shrink said:

...and another wilting Phoenician LEAF from the Facebook page:

David Ovienmhada, As of yesterday, I lost my 1st bar of capacity. 2012 Nissan Leaf SL, with 12,344 miles driven. In Phx, AZ.

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Can you provide a link? Couldn't find this on Facebook.

Stoaty said:

shrink said:

...and another wilting Phoenician LEAF from the Facebook page:

David Ovienmhada, As of yesterday, I lost my 1st bar of capacity. 2012 Nissan Leaf SL, with 12,344 miles driven. In Phx, AZ.

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Can you provide a link? Couldn't find this on Facebook.

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I'm actually not on FB, but from what I could view publicly, it's comment #68 on the open letter comment thread.

https://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf/posts/494625323886497" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

shrink said:

I'm actually not on FB, but from what I could view publicly, it's comment #68 on the open letter comment thread.

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Got it. Wiki updated. 44 cases total now reported of one bar loss.

Edit
Capacity bar entry reported here is already in Wiki