Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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TickTock said:
opossum said:
Nissan has informed us that they want to take 5 or 6 of our cars (we were a little fuzzy on which it was) down to their test facility in Casa Grande, AZ and run some tests.
It is 6. I just got back from vacation with a couple of voice mails inviting me to participate in their study. Looks like I got back just in time and was told I would make the total 6. Looks like they do pay attention, BTW, to this forum. My car had 11 bars last time I had it in and only reported my 2nd bar loss here. I never even filed a formal complaint. However, was told my car was selected because it had lost two bars. I supposed they could have been snooping over CarWings, but given my license plate avatar and published VIN it's not too hard to connect the dots. :) I'm happy to provide as much information as they want to help make a great car even better.
 
Well, even knowing what I know now, I would still buy a Leaf. 30% loss *is* unacceptable but I have complete faith that Nissan agrees and will make sure any such developments are satisfactorily addressed. I had my concerns about the battery when I bought last year but bought anyway because I couldn't imagine Nissan not addressing any unexpected losses. Still can't. It would be suicide (or, I suppose, hari-kari). They have been a bit slow and cautious, true, but that doesn't change the fact that they are a respectable automobile manufacturer which can easily cover their bet if it comes to that. First step is to head off the hysteria so their engineers can figure out what is going on. Then they can properly address the issue based on data. Stay cool.
 
shrink said:
found it even more frustrating Nissan called this "normal." Sorry to keep posting this, but here is hard evidence of that position:
LEAFBatteryInspection6-22-2012-1.jpg
^I guess you can read this in a couple of ways:

1. (Normal) (capacity lost) = the capacity loss is normal, to be expected, not out of the ordinary (what Shrink interpreted).
2. (Normal capacity) (lost) = the (normal capacity), as opposed to the (extra/actual/real/or whatever) capacity, is lost. This doesn't necessarily say the it's normal to lose this capacity. It just says that you lost this type of capacity that they label "normal capacity".

To me, the interpretation in 1 makes more sense. But it's still vague enough to mean 2.
 
TickTock said:
Well, even knowing what I know now, I would still buy a Leaf. 30% loss *is* unacceptable but I have complete faith that Nissan agrees and will make sure any such developments are satisfactorily addressed. I had my concerns about the battery when I bought last year but bought anyway because I couldn't imagine Nissan not addressing any unexpected losses. Still can't. It would be suicide (or, I suppose, hari-kari). They have been a bit slow and cautious, true, but that doesn't change the fact that they are a respectable automobile manufacturer which can easily cover their bet if it comes to that. First step is to head off the hysteria so their engineers can figure out what is going on. Then they can properly address the issue based on data. Stay cool.

Toyota recalled and repaired *millions* of cars few years ago and regained the confidence of their customers.
I expect Nissan to do the same, once it determines what is going with these cars.
 
JPWhite said:
gbarry42 said:
Interesting from the standpoint of Nissan being surprised by all this. I have read lots of lectures here about how Nissan tested batteries in Arizona long before the car was delivered.

Just because Nissan tested the cars does not mean the tests found any and all problems with their product.

When testing software, it almost never fails that once released to a large community of users, bugs are found that testing did not reveal, but were there all along. You can blame the level, quantity or quality of testing until you are blue in the face, Quality Assurance is not an exact science. The fact that **** happens is a fact of life.
Yep. Also, from having done software testing for >13 years, the other problem is that products ship w/known bugs that management chooses to ship with/ignore.

I know some people are not happy w/the speed at which Nissan's providing information/addressing the situation. In one group at the company I worked at, there was this frustrating policy that we couldn't "acknowledge" bugs or give an ETA of the fix. All we could say is that "we're investigating", even if I've already finished testing the fix! The logic in the latter is that sometimes the fix gets yanked (due to bugs, fix was incomplete, other negative side effects, other reasons, etc.) and we didn't want to be a position of promising something that we couldn't deliver.

Something like this probably is going on at Nissan and further actions may require more investigation, running what if scenarios (like for cost) and approval from many layers of management besides the lawyers.

HXGuy said:
It's not like Nissan/Ford/Audi/etc have different warranties on their cars depending on where they are sold.
FWIW, for CARB emissions states (e.g. CA, NY, NJ, etc.) states, cars that are AT-PZEV or PZEV certified have MUCH longer emissions warranties than the rest of the US. AT-PZEV and I believe eAT-PZEV cars also have much longer warranties on their HV batteries and some hybrid components.

Example: HV battery is warranted for 10 years/150K miles in CA and CARB states vs. 8 years/100K miles in the rest of the US. This is true for the Prius, Camry Hybrid (IIRC), Altima Hybrid, Civic Hybrid and likely many more. CARB emissions warranties for these cars should be 15 years/150K miles vs. MUCH shorter emissions warranties for the rest of the US.
 
leafwing said:
Toyota recalled and repaired *millions* of cars few years ago and regained the confidence of their customers.
I expect Nissan to do the same, once it determines what is going with these cars.
The repairs were very cheap per car in comparison to replacing a Leaf's battery. They consisted of replacing floor mats, trimming accelerator pedals in some cars and on CTS accelerator pedal equipped cars (ones assembled in NA), putting in a tiny metal shim.
 
leafwing said:
Toyota recalled and repaired *millions* of cars few years ago and regained the confidence of their customers. I expect Nissan to do the same, once it determines what is going with these cars.
Agreed. I think we have Nissan's attention now. They may need a month or two to do their testing, digest all of this information and decide on a course of action. I don't think it is reasonable to expect more than that. Harping on the fact that a few more days have gone by and they haven't done anything isn't going to help anyone. I know it is hard to be patient (and easier for me to say, since my Leaf is not affected), but I think that is the best course of action right now. There will be plenty of time left to complain if the resolution Nissan comes up with is not satisfactory to those who are affected. ;)
 
Gonewild said:
TickTock, You remember last Oct I got my battery pack replaced, because of the bar dropping off in only 7 months. Now 7 months later here I have bars dropping again. I have 22,000 miles in 14 months. I never said anything publicly because I was happy. My car was the FIRST to go to Nissan test track in Oct 2011. For them to say WOW we never seen that before! We will have to look in to it is a FRAUD!!!
Wow, this is big! Yet another half-truth from Nissan for saying they've never seen it before.

Also, if Nissan didn't learn anything from testing your original battery pack 9 months ago, I wonder how they'll be able to learn anything this time around from the other 6 cars.
 
RegGuheert wrote:
...I'm sorry, Nissan, but if you believe that a 30% drop in the LEAF's battery capacity after 15 months and 25,000 miles is NORMAL under ANY circumstances, then you should NOT be selling LEAFs in climates where that could be remotely true...

So, I guess you think that no BEVs should be sold in Arizona?

We don't really know the full circumstances of the two LEAFs which have reported 3 bars lost, if that is what you are referring to by "a 30% drop in the LEAF's battery capacity". For example, If you park any BEV in a hot garage with a fully charged battery for a long period in Phoenix, (and even in somewhat cooler climates) you probably could expect significant additional battery degradation.

Even active thermal management systems may not help, if grid power is not constantly supplied.

And we also don't know if those two batteries (and maybe others, which have lost bars) may already have had defects at delivery.

RegGuheert wrote:
...In addition, the warnings about capacity loss implied that the owner could affect the rate of capacity loss by their habits, but it seems that in some climates the actions of the owner have only a secondary effect...

While high heat exposure certainly seems to be a prerequisite for capacity bar losses (so far) reporting on LEAF battery history of the bar loss cars is far from complete, at least as compiled on the wiki.

http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Azdre, to her credit, mentioned some possible co-factors, in her posts reporting the first bar loss, at the start of this thread.

A few others with bar losses have also. Thank you.

edatoakrun said:
azdre said:
Let's see if I can answer all of your questions:

* We always charge to 100% (we drive it a lot, 17,000 miles in 14 months of driving).
* We do 'top it off' a lot. That's the one item we got 4/5 stars on the battery check in March 2012.
* The car sat at 100% for a month in May, 2011, not plugged in.
* It's almost always garaged or in covered parking.
* We get the low battery warning about once a month.
* Never turtled. Been meaning to try this out though.
* We've QC'd 2-3 times this spring.
* There's been no error messages (aside from the A/C fiasco last summer, please don't make me relive that one.)
* My husband is a nut about keeping the tire pressure monitored and consistant.
* I'll pull the carwings data and add it to here tonight.

I'm thinking I should take it in to the dealer for some documentation even if they turn me away initially.

Yes, I would, in your situation.

I don't intend to be critical, but given your location, if heat and time spent at 100% charge are the greatest variables in loss of capacity, Your 12th bar, could perhaps, be just be the first "canary" to stop signing.

Please report back, when you find out more, about how much range and kWh capacity that bar corresponds to.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
cwerdna said:
FWIW, for CARB emissions states (e.g. CA, NY, NJ, etc.) states, cars that are AT-PZEV or PZEV certified have MUCH longer emissions warranties than the rest of the US. AT-PZEV and I believe eAT-PZEV cars also have much longer warranties on their HV batteries and some hybrid components.

Example: HV battery is warranted for 10 years/150K miles in CA and CARB states vs. 8 years/100K miles in the rest of the US. This is true for the Prius, Camry Hybrid (IIRC), Altima Hybrid, Civic Hybrid and likely many more. CARB emissions warranties for these cars should be 15 years/150K miles vs. MUCH shorter emissions warranties for the rest of the US.
Funny you should mention CARB. Someone there had a good look at this long thread of ours. Didn't see them here before.

carbmnl
1
 
I posted a quick comment to see if we get more Phoenix owners to contribute

https://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf/posts/494625323886497?comment_id=6186162&offset=0&total_comments=34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Herm Perez : If you live in Phoenix and have owned your Leaf for a year please report how many capacity bars you have remaining.. the capacity bars are little square ticks that are to the right of the long remaining charge bars. If we get 3 reports of loss and 10 reports of no-loss then we can get an idea of how widespread the problem is in Arizona."
 
edatoakrun said:
So, I guess you think that no BEVs should be sold in Arizona?
No, I don't think that. And I don't think Ford or Tesla will ever try to claim that such a loss is normal, either.

The battery system in the Nissan LEAF is not properly engineered to be sold in a mass-market vehicle for sale in Phoenix. Based on opossum's admittedly small survey, it appears that about 50% are losing more than 15% in the first year of ownership. That means that basically no purchase in Phoenix is more financially attractive than a lease.

I wonder what today's purchasers of LEAFs in Phoenix will do when they learn the timeline showing that Nissan KNEW the batteries would degrade prematurely but sold them a car anyway.
 
I guess we can add to our stat Wiki guys from Nisan Leaf Facebook
Bob Stokes I live in Houston and have lost one bar in in one year with 14,500 miles.
Philip Childs Live in SoCal and my LEAF has lost 11% battery capacity, in less than a year and 8800 miles. I charge to 80%, after midnight, never quick charged, only charge to 100% 2-4 times a month, when I need the extra range. Nissan needs to provide LEAF owners with detailed battery care instructions, the owners manual is too vague. It says things like, "let battery cool before charging." The battery temperature gauge has 12 bars, the top two are red, what is the best temperature to charge at? I have many more questions, but no answers from Nissan. The LEAF is my 7th Nissan, please don't make it my last Nissan.
 
surfingslovak said:
Another one for the Wiki?

1

Click to open
I have tried to contact a couple of people who posted on Facebook and sent PM to owners listed in the Wiki but have incomplete information. Got info on 4-5 people, but there are still many with missing VIN and/or no case number so we don't even know if these people have opened a formal case with Nissan. I am not sure why some people would post that they lost a bar and then not respond to PM (since email is sent to them that there is a PM waiting for them). Perhaps they are on vacation, too busy, or have lost interest. While I think it would be useful to collect more data, there isn't much more I can do.
 
Volusiano said:
Gonewild said:
TickTock, You remember last Oct I got my battery pack replaced, because of the bar dropping off in only 7 months. Now 7 months later here I have bars dropping again. I have 22,000 miles in 14 months. I never said anything publicly because I was happy. My car was the FIRST to go to Nissan test track in Oct 2011. For them to say WOW we never seen that before! We will have to look in to it is a FRAUD!!!
Wow, this is big! Yet another half-truth from Nissan for saying they've never seen it before.

Also, if Nissan didn't learn anything from testing your original battery pack 9 months ago, I wonder how they'll be able to learn anything this time around from the other 6 cars.
Wow! This IS huge. Way more interesting than Carla's letter. ;)
 
Stoaty said:
I am not sure why some people would post that they lost a bar and then not respond to PM (since email is sent to them that there is a PM waiting for them). Perhaps they are on vacation, too busy, or have lost interest. While I think it would be useful to collect more data, there isn't much more I can do.
I had this problem before as well, and some recipients indicated that they did not see message. It might be helpful to mention them by name in the original thread and tell them to look for a PM. Hopefully that will get their attention.
 
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