E85 to E100 - Anyone using Ethanol?

Found this today - enjoy a report from the world that existed before there was a gas station on nearly every corner. Set the Wayback Machine to St Louis in 1909, will you Sherman?

The gent that oversaw the testing was the engineer in charge of the producer-gas section of the USGS tech branch. Yes - folks familiar with the use of wood gas and ethanol in engines evaluated this new-fangled mineral fuel as "provided for by acts of Congress."

An alcohol engine with the maximum degree of compression for alcohol will have an available horsepower 30 per cent greater than a gasoline engine of the same cylinder size, stroke, and speed.

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http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0392/report.pdf

Interesting find on that alcohol test.. obviously the gasoline available back then was only 50 octane, but apparently very cheap.

You have a good forum for ethanol conversions?

Herm said:

Interesting find on that alcohol test.. obviously the gasoline available back then was only 50 octane, but apparently very cheap.

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Yes - apparently cheap enough that refiners dumped it in the rivers as waste from the refineries after making the kerosene they could sell. :lol:

Herm said:

You have a good forum for ethanol conversions?

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Not really - this is all new to me. I've been playing with diesels so long I had to do 'remedial training' for this silly thing with spark plugs. :lol: There are sales places for folks selling the 'injector cheater' devices, and then a couple of groups devoted to folks distilling fuel. The single best overall summary that I've found is Blume's book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas" and some of the documents from the Alcohol Fuel Yahoo group. I'm enjoying Blume's view as he's been making and using ethanol for years, and is a permaculturist and was an organic farmer. The preference for the micro-refinery and co-op folks is farm scale, co-op/community scale alcohol from sustainable sources. They're not fans of manipulation from the oil industry, or Shell's desire to import ethanol from South America rather than buy from American farmers.

http://alcoholcanbeagas.com/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/alcoholfuel/

I'd enjoy hearing about groups if anyone has one to share!

Consumer Reports just did a test on E85 and reported that, with their vehicles that were specifically designed as flex-fuel and to use E85, there was a 30 percent drop in mileage compared to gas and a corresponding drop in perfomance... Not really anything of a surprise since this is well known...

TomT said:

Consumer Reports just did a test on E85 and reported that, with their vehicles that were specifically designed as flex-fuel and to use E85, there was a 30 percent drop in mileage compared to gas and a corresponding drop in perfomance... Not really anything of a surprise since this is well known...

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I'll look for that - thanks for the head's up! I'm not surprised, though, as a flex fuel vehicle in the US has to work year-round all over the US for ~100,000 miles on our fairly low quality gasoline. I'm still searching for SAE papers and such, but it appears that an engine purpose-built for ethanol has more power, much lower emissions, and higher fuel economy on ethanol over gasoline.

Maybe I need to go on vacation in Brazil and mail myself some 'assorted engine parts'...strictly for off-road experimental purposes, of course... :lol:

Making a car compatible with both E85 and E10 really cripples the potential of the E85, but you get better results with turbocharged engines since they essentially have variable compression. The EPA test may not reflect this if they dont drive the cars aggressively enough to engage the turbo, real life results wont be that bad but you have to give the engine time to adapt to E85, a couple of tankfuls should do it.

Ethanol has much lower specific energy density that gasoline so I'm very doubtful that can ever be the case... Emissions, perhaps, but power per gallon and fuel mileage will always be lower than a gasoline engine...

AndyH said:

I'm still searching for SAE papers and such, but it appears that an engine purpose-built for ethanol has more power, much lower emissions, and higher fuel economy on ethanol over gasoline.

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TomT said:

Ethanol has much lower specific energy density that gasoline so I'm very doubtful that can ever be the case... Emissions, perhaps, but power per gallon and fuel mileage will always be lower than a gasoline engine...

AndyH said:

I'm still searching for SAE papers and such, but it appears that an engine purpose-built for ethanol has more power, much lower emissions, and higher fuel economy on ethanol over gasoline.

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It appears that while the specific energy thing is factually correct, it's only part of the story. Ethanol's higher thermal efficiency appears to more than make up for the energy difference in an ICE. I'm still looking for good, peer-review info however so don't shoot me quite yet.

This is from Blume's "Alcohol Can Be A Gas" page 352. (I don't know the data source so treat it as a suggestion at this point. Harper is the book's graphics designer. The near 40% efficiency number is reported in the 2007 EPA presentation linked on the bottom of the page, though.)


"High Efficiency and Low Emissions from a Port-Injected Engine with Neat Alcohol Fuels"
http://papers.sae.org/2002-01-2743/
Full paper:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/sae-2002-01-2743-v2.pdf

While recognizing the considerable challenge associated with cold start, the alcohol-fueled engine nonetheless offers the advantages of being a more efficient, cleaner alternative to gasoline and diesel engines.

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This from 2007 reports "better than diesel efficiency" of over 39% in medium-duty service (think UPS van).
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/2007-01-3993-alcohol-final.pdf

Herm said:

The EPA test may not reflect this if they dont drive the cars aggressively enough to engage the turbo

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I don't seem to have that problem with my turbo. :lol: Of course, that doesn't help the gas mileage at all.

While recognizing the considerable challenge associated with cold start

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I had a hell of a time getting my car to start from cold this past winter on a trip to CO! It took about 10-15 minutes of trying the starter. Glad the battery held out.

Electric4Me said:

I had a hell of a time getting my car to start from cold this past winter on a trip to CO! It took about 10-15 minutes of trying the starter. Glad the battery held out.

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Thats the issue with ethanol, harder to start. It must be worse in Brazil since you can get pure ethanol with 20% water for your car there, its one of the fueling options.. sometimes you have to get the car started with gasoline and then switch over.

Modders that chip their cars can get insane power levels with E85, that can turn into high economy if driven properly.. you can come close to the E10 economy or even exceed it slightly.

For my option, E85 is a perfect mix of 15% gas and 85% "alky". Good starting and with a good high compression motor, about the same in MPG.

The flex fuel cars are a bad mix since they are not optimal for either gas or E85. Build your motor for E85 and it will run clean,fast and have good MPG.

there is only one station i "know of" that sells E85 (standard gas is E10) here but i dont seek it out so there is probably more i am unaware of but i am not aware of a 30% drop in mileage. have seen 18-20% max but then again, not a lot of demand for it here and the gas mileage drop is the biggest reason why.

it is also about the same price as gas. i will be driving by that station today. i will swing in and check the price now that reg gas has dropped dramatically in price

Here are a couple of E85 station finders. Both appear more complete and accurate than the DOE's site, at least for the central TX stations I can verify.

Click "E-85 Station Finder" in upper right:
http://alcoholcanbeagas.com/

Prices and station locator:
http://e85prices.com/e85map.php

DOE Alt Fuel locator:
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/locator/stations/

etracing said:

For my option, E85 is a perfect mix of 15% gas and 85% "alky". Good starting and with a good high compression motor, about the same in MPG.

The flex fuel cars are a bad mix since they are not optimal for either gas or E85. Build your motor for E85 and it will run clean,fast and have good MPG.

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How's your engine set up? Any fuel heating or vaporization?

Can you recommend an alcohol engine build guide?

Thanks!

Smidge204 said:

I'm still against growing food crops (especially corn) for fuel, or using arable land and fresh water for that purpose at all. Cellulosic ethanol + treating effluent water I'm all for, though!
=Smidge=

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/06/fulcrum-sierra-biofuels-_n_1748737.html

CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — Common household trash will be converted into ethanol for transportation fuel at a planned biofuel production facility in northern Nevada...The company, a subsidiary of Fulcrum BioEnergy Inc. headquartered in Pleasanton, Calif., plans to convert 147,000 tons of municipal solid waste into 10 million gallons of ethanol annually at the new plant.

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10 million gallons of ethanol a year is not bad, about $23 million worth.. the trash has to be transported anyways.. but then its sorted and processed into ethanol probably by a gasification process. Hopefully the ethanol sales will cover the costs.

It would be nice if the homeowners did the sorting, separate metals and glass from the rest of the stuff.

http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdigest/2011/11/21/waste-management-invests-in-fulcrum-provides-70m-debt-for-first-commercial-project/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"They intend to use a substantial portion of the IPO proceeds of the offering to fund the construction of its first commercial-scale ethanol production facility, the Sierra BioFuels Plant. At this facility, they expect to produce approximately 10 million gallons of ethanol per year at an unsubsidized cash operating cost of less than $1.30 per gallon, net of the sale of co-products such as renewable energy credits."

" “Fulcrum is deploying an innovative proprietary system to convert post-recycled municipal solid waste into advanced biofuels. Beginning with a thermochemical gasification system that converts the MSW into a syngas, Fulcrum has developed a proprietary alcohol synthesis process that efficiently and economically converts the syngas into advanced biofuels,” added Macias."

Hope I do this right. Here is a link to a nice little video clip entitled,

"Ethanol means Happy Engines and Full Wallets"

on how ethanol provides economic security for American families, saves us all money at the pump and helps our cars run cleaner and stronger.

http://chooseethanol.com/pages/happ..._campaign=20120809ethanolad&utm_content=video
 

And it also eliminates Gout, increases your IQ by 12 points, and cures the heartbreak of psoriasis!

lkkms2 said:

Hope I do this right. Here is a link to a nice little video clip entitled,

"Ethanol means Happy Engines and Full Wallets"

on how ethanol provides economic security for American families, saves us all money at the pump and helps our cars run cleaner and stronger. 

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TomT said:

And it also eliminates Gout, increases your IQ by 12 points, and cures the heartbreak of psoriasis!

lkkms2 said:

Hope I do this right. Here is a link to a nice little video clip entitled,

"Ethanol means Happy Engines and Full Wallets"

on how ethanol provides economic security for American families, saves us all money at the pump and helps our cars run cleaner and stronger. 

Click to expand...

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Tomato, that is what I love about this forum. Always a good laugh around the corner.

Some hidden benefits:

10 Ways Ethanol is Helping Livestock Producers - Domestic Fuel

http://domesticfuel.com/2012/08/10/10-ways-ethanol-is-helping-livestock-producers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;