100 Mile Club, 200 km, 300 km, 200 Mile Club (24kWh LEAF)

hey there,
here's my contribution. don't know how much more you need to know but 80% of the trip was with 390 passenger pounds and the last 20% with 215 passenger pounds. ambient temp was around 70 degrees. feel like i could go much further if i planned this out. got home with 80 miles and then decided to try the rest of the way.
low battery warning at 85.3 miles. never received vlbw.
thanks,
marc

bamamarc77 said:

hey there,
here's my contribution. don't know how much more you need to know but 80% of the trip was with 390 passenger pounds and the last 20% with 215 passenger pounds. ambient temp was around 70 degrees. feel like i could go much further if i planned this out. got home with 80 miles and then decided to try the rest of the way.
low battery warning at 85.3 miles. never received vlbw.
thanks,
marc

Click to expand...

Marc,

Welcome to the club! You'll find your green sport jacket, with a large number 33 attached thereon, behind the door in the cloak room.

Well, we have finally managed to achieve over 100 miles on a single charge. I must say that achieving that around here is somewhat of a PITA! I don't think we will be doing much more charging to 100% or discharging below VLBW anytime soon. Time to concentrate on achieving very long battery life instead!

Here are some stats from my drive:
Wall energy using L1 charging from 0.2 miles below VLBW to 100% prior to drive: 27.17 kWh
Total number of legs driven: 10
Ambient temperature range for the driving: ~65F to 85F
Battery temperature range for the driving: Mostly at 6 temperature bars but a small amount at 5 bars
Miles to LBW: 88.7 mi. (FWIW, 10 was showing on GOM.)
Miles to VLBW: 100.3 mi.
Miles total: 101.0 mi.
Dash efficiency: 5.7 mi./kWh
Calculated energy usage: 17.7 kWh
Odometer at end of drive: 3718 mi.
Wall energy using L1 charging from 0.7 miles below VLBW to 100% following the drive: 26.85 kWh

And finally, the important part:

RegGuheert said:

Wall energy using L1 charging from 0.2 miles below VLBW to 100% prior to drive: 27.17 kWh
Total number of legs driven: 10
Ambient temperature range for the driving: ~65F to 85F
Battery temperature range for the driving: Mostly at 6 temperature bars but a small amount at 5 bars
Miles to LBW: 88.7 mi. (FWIW, 10 was showing on GOM.)
Miles to VLBW: 100.3 mi.
Miles total: 101.0 mi.
Dash efficiency: 5.7 mi./kWh
Calculated energy usage: 17.7 kWh

Click to expand...

So, assuming it takes about the same amount of energy to recharge afterward as it did before (and it should) you seem to be getting only 65% efficiency, wall to wheels. Just from memory, it seems other people have reported 73% to 76% when using L1. Any reason you can think of why yours should be so much lower? High beams on all the time? Heat cranked up to max? 16 bags of cement mix in the back? 1000w aftermarket stereo blasting? :lol:

[Don't be ashamed to admit it. Things like that just make your accomplishment more impressive.]

Ray

planet4ever said:

So, assuming it takes about the same amount of energy to recharge afterward as it did before (and it should) you seem to be getting only 65% efficiency, wall to wheels. Just from memory, it seems other people have reported 73% to 76% when using L1.

Click to expand...

Given that Phil has measured L1 charging efficiency to be 77.5%, those numbers seem rather high to me. That would imply that battery storage efficiency combined with battery-to-wheels efficiency is 94% to 98%. I will say 65% L1 wall-to-wheels efficiency sounds more reasonable since it puts battery storage plus battery-to-wheels efficiency at 84%. (FWIW, the line voltage at the input to our EVSE was 113.2V, which is pretty close to the 112.5V Phil had when he made his measurements.)

planet4ever said:

Any reason you can think of why yours should be so much lower? High beams on all the time? Heat cranked up to max? 16 bags of cement mix in the back? 1000w aftermarket stereo blasting?

Click to expand...

High beams were on for no more than five minutes. Climate control was off during the entire drive. Driver plus other passengers and cargo never exceeded 400 lbs. Tire pressure is 38 psi. There was no rain or standing water.

battery to wheels should be 97+%. i measured 75% efficiency with L1 overall so if B2W efficiency takes 2-3% you would have the figure i received.

DaveinOlyWA said:

battery to wheels should be 97+%. i measured 75% efficiency with L1 overall so if B2W efficiency takes 2-3% you would have the figure i received.

Click to expand...

According to a presentation by Nissan's Shinsuke Nakazawa, the PEAK efficiency of the LEAF's powertrain is below 95% and a weighted average of normal driving conditions is just above 90%:

The powertrain system archives high efficiency of near 95% at the most efficient operating point. At the weighted average of the operating points used most frequently by the vehicle, this electric powertrain still achieves a high efficiency of over 90%.

Click to expand...

Storage efficiency of the battery pack over a SOC range of 93% down to 10% is probably on the order of 97%. Then add in wind resistance and (possibly) tire rolling resistance and you are easily in the 85% range.

RegGuheert said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

battery to wheels should be 97+%. i measured 75% efficiency with L1 overall so if B2W efficiency takes 2-3% you would have the figure i received.

Click to expand...

According to a presentation by Nissan's Shinsuke Nakazawa, the PEAK efficiency of the LEAF's powertrain is below 95% and a weighted average of normal driving conditions is just above 90%:

The powertrain system archives high efficiency of near 95% at the most efficient operating point. At the weighted average of the operating points used most frequently by the vehicle, this electric powertrain still achieves a high efficiency of over 90%.

Click to expand...

Storage efficiency of the battery pack over a SOC range of 93% down to 10% is probably on the order of 97%. Then add in wind resistance and (possibly) tire rolling resistance and you are easily in the 85% range.

Click to expand...

what?

DaveinOlyWA said:

what?

Click to expand...

Simply put, based on the data provided by Nissan:

1) Claims of battery-to-wheels efficiency for the LEAF of 95% or above are incorrect. (Alternatively, there is another source of energy involved such as gravitational potential energy or wind.)
2) Claims of battery-to-wheels efficiency for the LEAF of 90% to 95% are highly suspect.
3) Claims of battery-to-wheels efficiency for the LEAF below 90% are reasonable.

Regarding Phil's measurement of L1 charging efficiency, it should be noted that the number provided is for a single line and battery voltage pair ONLY. Specifically, it is for a line voltage of 112.5V and whatever battery voltage occurs at 65% SOC, 62F and charging at a rate of 1125W. The efficiency will be different at othe line and battery voltages. That said, I doubt that it should move around more than a percent or so.

BTW, I see that I used the wrong L1 efficiency from Phil's post since I have the L2 EVSEupgraded unit. Using the 78.3% number given, I can calculate the energy put into the battery after my drive to be approximately 21kWh. That means the other efficiencies of battery storage and battery-to-wheels for our LEAF for this drive were about 84% combined.

RegGuheert said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

what?

Click to expand...

Simply put...

Click to expand...

I think Dave's comment was in regards to the wind resistance comment. Wind resistance doesn't have anything to do with efficiency to the wheels. Overall efficiency, yes. Efficiency to the wheels, no.

Thanks for the analysis, RegGuheert. Both it and your numbers now seem to make perfect sense.

Ray

drees said:

I think Dave's comment was in regards to the wind resistance comment. Wind resistance doesn't have anything to do with efficiency to the wheels. Overall efficiency, yes. Efficiency to the wheels, no.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a quibble to me. I would say, efficiency as measured by m/kWh: Yes. That is what matters in this context.

Ray

drees said:

RegGuheert said:

I think Dave's comment was in regards to the wind resistance comment. Wind resistance doesn't have anything to do with efficiency to the wheels. Overall efficiency, yes. Efficiency to the wheels, no.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You're right. I backed out the miles to get the energy used, so wind resistance does not apply. Thanks for pointing that out.

planet4ever said:

Thanks for the analysis, RegGuheert. Both it and your numbers now seem to make perfect sense.

Click to expand...

You're welcome. Taking this one step further, if I assume battery storage plus battery-to-wheels efficiency of 84% and use Phil's 91% efficiency number for L2 charging, I get a wall-to-wheels efficiency of about 76% for L2 charging.

drees said:

RegGuheert said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

what?

Click to expand...

Simply put...

Click to expand...

I think Dave's comment was in regards to the wind resistance comment. Wind resistance doesn't have anything to do with efficiency to the wheels. Overall efficiency, yes. Efficiency to the wheels, no.

Click to expand...

ok, someone gets it...

RegGuheert said:

planet4ever said:

Thanks for the analysis, RegGuheert. Both it and your numbers now seem to make perfect sense.

Click to expand...

You're welcome. Taking this one step further, if I assume battery storage plus battery-to-wheels efficiency of 84% and use Phil's 91% efficiency number for L2 charging, I get a wall-to-wheels efficiency of about 76% for L2 charging.

Click to expand...

Right about where it should be, and compares to the typical 16-18% for an ICE.

planet4ever said:

drees said:

I think Dave's comment was in regards to the wind resistance comment. Wind resistance doesn't have anything to do with efficiency to the wheels. Overall efficiency, yes. Efficiency to the wheels, no.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a quibble to me. I would say, efficiency as measured by m/kWh: Yes. That is what matters in this context.

Ray

Click to expand...

actually he has it correct. efficiency is a ratio. miles per K in two different measurements. wall to wheels/battery to wheels.

generally speaking if you charge 120 volt @ 12 amps you get about 75% back.

charge 240 volts @ 16 amps, you get about 85-88% back.

now, Ray in the grand scheme of things you are correct. the only thing that matters in the end is how much the electric bill is.

so if you examine the formula, outside parameters like wind direction, elevation changes, etc. do not change the ratio, so mention them if you like because the do affect your performance

N1ghtrider's 14th time to reach 100 miles or better on a single charge. With this accomplishment (and my 3 times beating 200 km) I am temporarily retiring from the quest to beat these marks. I will get back in the hunt when someone else breaks 10 charges of 100-plus miles or meets my three 200 km-plus record.



I hit lbw at 84.4 miles; never hit vlbw. I lost the last charge bar at 90 miles.



At the risk of annoying those who love to hate the GOM, the way I have reached 100+ miles is to trust the GOM to be conservative when it gets down to the last 10 miles and less. When I lost the last charge bar, the GOM showed that I had 7 miles left, but I needed 10 to hit 100. I kept driving and maximizing m/kwh and the GOM never got below 3 (on the dash) and 4 (on the screen). The dash GOM went to --- when I went in the house to get the cellphone to take the pix.

I know that I am not anywhere close to being one of the m/kwh leaders, but I keep saying that I am a soldier in the war against range anxiety. As long as I have 3or 4 miles on the GOM and am within 2 miles of a charging station, I am at peace. I know it is squirrely at the upper levels of a charge, but when the charge is low it has never let me down.

8 months of ownership and only 5k miles ?

mkjayakumar said:

8 months of ownership and only 5k miles ?

Click to expand...

I have had the LEAF 7 months and 6 days. The first few months I have been putting miles "in the bank" because I have a lease and was burned by excess miles once. My goal now is to drive the LEAF 1000 miles per month to get the most value I can out of it, which is 33 miles per day, and keep the other 2,000 miles in the bank for unexpected needs. I only drive 18 miles roundtrip to work and back a day, with a couple of miles to the store or other errands. When the weather is nice I often ride my Harley to work instead of taking the LEAF. I have trips longer than 50 miles each way once a week or so and use my ICE (honda civic hybrid) for those, unless I will be stopped at the destination for more than a couple of hours and can recharge enough to get back.