SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

SanDust said:

TRONZ said:

Yes Sandust, I am sure all the QC charging companies will be calling you for consult on their business models.

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If you only knew! :lol:

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Soooo this would explain why they are doing the opposite of what you think??? Got it!

Funny but, I am not even aware of you owning a car with a QC port?!? :shock:

TonyWilliams said:

Even the NRG with the state of California deal doesn't say they have to install SAE units; just make a spot available for one next to a ChaDeMo unit.

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Hi Tony,
Here's a little more information from the NRG settlement agreement that is interesting about SAE and Chademo...It looks to me like NRG is on the hook to retrofit/add SAE DC FC or replace the Chademo units with a combo DCFC within 6 months of SAE DC FC Standard approval and NRTL testing of SAE or Combo equipment. Since the NRG agreement is good for 4 years, with an option for a 5th year, that time frame should capture the introduction of the SAE equipment and then NRG would be required to support both...Is that what others think?

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/CD5E3578-5EAD-47BA-BC5A-B6BD398CCBF6/0/JointOfferofSettlement.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Page 40 of 90 in the pdf...

Paragraph (4)
As soon as the SAE DCFC Standard is approved and two unaffiliated manufacturers produce a SAE DCFC or a SAE/Chademo combo DCFC and the new equipment is NRTL tested/approved, then NRG shall have 6 months to complete the modification of all installed Freedom Stations to include 1 SAE DCFC and 1 Chademo DCFC or 1 Combo SAE/Chademo DCFC.

NRG is planning to leave spots open for SAE after cars and equipment are available. The foundation of their QC infrastructure will be CHAdeMO so it's unlikely they will be doing any takeaways to ignore 95% of the EV market by then. Adding to the existing CHAdeMO with SAE or combo units seems pretty clear. Their biggest expenses will be site electrical work anyways.

Bottom line, I doubt NRG/CA have a contract that stipulates all CHAdeMO stations are to be ripped out and replaced with SAE the day after GM produces a Spark. Common sense says retrofits will be based on the number and types of EV's demanding QC.

Randy said:

As soon as the SAE DCFC Standard is approved and two unaffiliated manufacturers produce a SAE DCFC or a SAE/Chademo combo DCFC and the new equipment is NRTL tested/approved, then NRG shall have 6 months to complete the modification of all installed Freedom Stations to include 1 SAE DCFC and 1 Chademo DCFC or 1 Combo SAE/Chademo DCFC.

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That right there means years

Randy said:

As soon as the SAE DCFC Standard is approved and two unaffiliated manufacturers produce a SAE DCFC or a SAE/Chademo combo DCFC and the new equipment is NRTL tested/approved, then NRG shall have 6 months to complete the modification of all installed Freedom Stations to include 1 SAE DCFC and 1 Chademo DCFC or 1 Combo SAE/Chademo DCFC.

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Not to add confusion to the legal vocabulary but when one counts QC's here, does one count the number of Freedom sites, the number of EVSE units installed or the number of QC plugs available?

I'd say # of EVSE units. The Blink DCFC are a single EVSE, even though they have two cables and take two parking spots. Only one vehicle charging at a time.
May also need to consider the kWh capability of the DCFC.
The units that will be going in at BP stations will be 208V supplied, instead of dedicated three phase 480V power like all the Blink units have been to date. They may be lower kWh capability, but maybe not. I don't have the details on those units.

TRONZ said:

Funny but, I am not even aware of you owning a car with a QC port?!? :shock:

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Longer than you have my friend. :lol:

Check this out-
http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

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91040 said:

Check this out-
http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

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Only a GM flack like Balch could use the term "very small group of cars" To refer to every production DC capable vehicle in the world.

GM doesn't want any DC standard, and is just building a few spark BEV conversions, to block the competition.

The reality is, once there is a US fast charge network using any standard, Volt and other plug-in hybrids sales will be reduced to a tiny fraction of all EV sales, and GM knows it.

GM placed a huge bet on a lame horse, and now wants to even the race, by starving the rest of the field.

SanDust said:

TRONZ said:

Funny but, I am not even aware of you owning a car with a QC port?!? :shock:

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Longer than you have my friend. :lol:

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Please do tell. What QC standard do you OWN??? SAE is vaporware and no cars exist so couldn't be that. LEAF 202 is a pretty low number on CHAD but who knows. That would only leave some EE homebrew solution for you to own. If so, I stand corrected... but this also contributes little to infrastructure now does it?

It is clear you want the "god" treatment from MNL but why??? I suspect your just a GM EE guy who would get anything but the "god" treatment on this forum. And you know it!

TRONZ said:

SanDust said:

TRONZ said:

Funny but, I am not even aware of you owning a car with a QC port?!? :shock:

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Longer than you have my friend. :lol:

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Please do tell. What QC standard do you OWN??? SAE is vaporware and no cars exist so couldn't be that. LEAF 202 is a pretty low number on CHAD but who knows. That would only leave some EE homebrew solution for you to own. If so, I stand corrected... but this also contributes little to infrastructure now does it?

It is clear you want the "god" treatment from MNL but why??? I suspect your just a GM EE guy who would get anything but the "god" treatment on this forum. And you know it!

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Maybe he's referring to the gas tank fill, which has an effective power capacity up in the megawatts range... :lol:
=Smidge=

geez people there are NO evs with sae ports so who cares, CHAdeMO is here and being used and for those people who dont believe any business model will work has never been a businessman. by the way there are many models that will work your(sandust) pea brain must be real simple minded.

As I recall from past post SanDust leased a LEAF.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Speaking following the meeting, NRG's spokesperson, Terry O'Day, noted that the settlement between NRG and California does require that, as the SAE fast charging standard becomes available, that it be deployed to eVgo Freedom Stations. At least three CHADEMO charging station manufacturers (ABB, Eaton, and Schneider Electric) are planning to support the SAE standard.

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Submitted by Ashley Abraham (not verified) on Sat, 05/19/2012 - 09:11.

Just because the cars supporting Combo will not be available until early 2013 is not a reason not to deploy the Combo infrastructure beforehand. Indeed to support volume adoption of the Combo plug cars, the charging stations must be installed first. From early 2013, BMW i3 will be available as well as VW Up followed by Renault and then BMW's i8.

That leads me to anther point, which is that the GM led and SAE endorsed standard will be supported by nine car manufacturers not eight. Renault [Nissan partner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault-Nissan_Alliance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;] did not participate in the EVS26 announcement of eight, but announced support for this standard separately. One benefit of the SAE standard is that it is also supported by the ACEA in Europe, something which CHAdeMO is not. So there is USA/EU agreement, but it is not perfect without Japan, South Korea and China, all of which have gone in different directions.

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Submitted by Ashley Abraham (not verified) on Sat, 05/19/2012 - 14:02.

CHAdeMO is undeniably quite a good charging method, despite not being a standard, but it does have its drawbacks. The SAE and ACEA have tried to address some of the drawbacks of CHAdeMO and with broad support from the motor industry, something which CHAdeMO never had, came up with one plug that supports fast AC charging (43kW and semi fast 22kW) as well as DC up to 100 kW when that standard is ratified and implemented into vehicles.

So nothing against CHAdeMO, which I have used a number of times without a hitch, but things have moved on and a better system to become a standard is just around the corner in the form of Combo (one socket for all charging methods). Technically CHAdeMO works, but is clearly not as rounded or fully featured as Combo.

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edatoakrun said:

Only a GM flack like Balch could use the term "very small group of cars" To refer to every production DC capable vehicle in the world.

GM doesn't want any DC standard, and is just building a few spark BEV conversions, to block the competition.

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It looks like we have one GM employee (Ashley) posting "answers" for us. It looks like the talking points are:

1. ChadeMo not "a standard"... with over 1200 deployed worldwide and 30,000 cars that can use them today.

2. SAE frankenplug is a standard... but not a single charger or vehicle exists that can use that "standard" on planet earth. I'll add that even the SAE says that full deployment would not happen until 2017.

3. ChadeMo is Japanese (obviously bad)

4. SAE is "way better"... even though it hasn't even been approved by SAE yet.

5. The world would be better is Nissan and the ChadeMo would just disappear. Good luck Government Motors. There's a reason you've been bankrupt and perpetually behind the rest of the world.

scottf200 said:

Submitted by Ashley Abraham...One benefit of the SAE standard is that it is also supported by the ACEA in Europe, something which CHAdeMO is not....

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Based on additoinal google searches beyond that article they appear to be from the European Union with knowledge of European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA).

Clearly Nissan is OK with SAE standards at some level since they use the L2 J1772. It'll be interesting when the BMW i3 makes their [formal] announcement. Obviously this is bigger than GM.

TonyWilliams said:

It looks like we have one GM employee (Ashley) posting "answers" for us. It looks like the talking points are:
...
2. SAE frankenplug is a standard... but not a single charger or vehicle exists that can use that "standard" on planet earth. I'll add that even the SAE says that full deployment would not happen until 2017.

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The goofier part is that it seems a # of (most?) current vehicles w/J1772 wouldn't be able accept the SAE frankenplug (due to lack of space below the connector) unless that lower portion could be separated or unless a charging station provides two connectors: J1772 with and w/o Frankenplug .

It doesn't look like the Frankenplug will fit shipping Leafs, Volts nor PiPs. So much for a single connector...

cwerdna said:

It doesn't look like the Frankenplug will fit shipping Leafs, Volts nor PiPs. So much for a single connector...

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No, no, you're missing the point. Apparently they don't really care about a single connector, nor do they care about the "small number" of cars in the field. What they care about is that the "right" cars (the ones with the new SAE port) will be compatible with all of the SAE charging stations, and that includes today's J1772. They want a single port, not a single connector.

Of course they'll claim they're trying to be "really nice" to us by letting our noncompliant cars continue to use the AC-only charging stations. :roll:

Ray

scottf200 said:

It'll be interesting when the BMW i3 makes there announcement. Obviously this is bigger than GM.

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BMW already announced that they'll use the Frankenplug. Virtually every US and German based car manufacturer, plus apparently Nissan partner Renault, will use the Frankenplug by 2017.

2017 is key, because there will be VERY few cars using it in volume, including BMW (although they seem most serious about deploying volume EVs).

I'd say that two major bodies evaluated the options for world wide standard and agreed is what is significant and matter. Nissan obviously thought the J1772 standard was OK and did not create their own.

ACEA - European Automobile Manufacturers' Association http://www.acea.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ACEA has a lot of members:
http://www.acea.be/collection/about_us_acea_members/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BMW GROUP - http://www.bmwgroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
DAF TRUCKS NV - http://www.daftrucks.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
DAIMLER AG - http://www.fiatgroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FORD OF EUROPE GmbH - http://www.ford.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GENERAL MOTORS EUROPE - http://www.gm.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
HYUNDAI MOTOR EUROPE GmbH - http://www.hyundai-europe.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
IVECO S.p.A. - http://www.iveco.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JAGUAR LAND ROVER - http://www.jaguarlandrover.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MAN Truck & Bus AG - http://www.mn.man.de" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dr. Ing. h.c.F. PORSCHE AG - http://www.porsche.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PSA PEUGEOT CITROËN - http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RENAULT SA - http://www.renault.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SCANIA AB - http://www.scania.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TOYOTA MOTOR EUROPE - http://www.toyota.eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
VOLKSWAGEN AG - http://www.volkswagenag.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
VOLVO CAR CORPORATION - http://www.volvocars.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AB VOLVO - http://www.volvogroup.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess numbers matter to you when you're supporting GM's Frankenplug. Ok, they got nine suckers. ChadeMo has over 170 members, and 193 supporting members.

http://chademo.com/pdf/memberlist.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does this mean Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo get kicked out of GM's club (should they ever want to join)? Or just out of Europe?

Oh, those 207 ChadeMo chargers in Europe must not exist. SAE Frankenplug chargers anywhere in the world; ZERO. Chademo: about 1400. Of that total, about 30 in the USA. SAE Frankenplug in USA: zero.

GM Frankenplug cars on the road; zero. Chademo 30,000.