Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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LEAFfan said:
Just the heat of AZ will NOT damage the battery.
LEAFfan, I must disagree with this statement. High heat will absolutely accelerate the aging process for these batteries. If you took a car and exposed it to a the same usage pattern in Seattle and in Phoenix, all things being equal, the car in Seattle will exhibit less degradation. The NREL report Herm referenced last year showed this effect pretty clearly. Additionally, the lithium manganese battery chemistry the Leaf uses is known to be more temperature sensitive than lithium cobalt.

Now, Nissan has said that they don't need active temperature management in the US. Perhaps in Abu Dhabi or in Dubai, but not in the US. This means that they have extensively tested their batteries in hot locales, and they must have optimized the basic battery chemistry to be more resistant to heat. However, this does not imply the same rate of aging in hot and cold locales. I don't think that anyone has made that claim before.
 
Ugh... I shouldn't have posted anything. Forums make me crazy. I'm going to continue on my way and will update the OP when I get a resolution so that it will be documented for posterity. Thanks for reading and contributing to this discussion.
 
It won't matter where you are located. If you QC more than 6 times in a day or leave it in 122 degree heat for more than 24 hours, then you have a good chance of damaging the battery, not just losing capacity. Also, leaving it at 100% charge for long periods and topping it off when it's already over 80% may damage the pack and have it lose capacity. I'll say it again, these packs were tested extensively (simulated 8yrs/100K miles) here in the extreme heat, were QCd up to six times a day, and lost no more capacity than any other kind of charging. So, unless you have other info, the below 122 degree heat here will NOT be any worse on the capacity as where you are.
 
LEAFfan said:
I'll say it again, these packs were tested extensively (simulated 8yrs/100K miles) here in the extreme heat, were QCd up to six times a day, and lost no more capacity than any other kind of charging. So, unless you have other info, the below 122 degree heat here will NOT be any worse on the capacity as where you are.
Be it as it may, I find it particularly troubling that the majority of known cases of significant battery degradation occurred in Arizona. I send the OP my best wishes. Hopefully, she will be able to get this resolved, and I look forward to learning more. I'm done posting in this thread.
 
surfingslovak said:
I'm done posting in this thread.

I hear ya! I'll make this my last post, too, as I think the OP gets the message now.

They did a lot of simulated testing for the space shuttle, and had virtually unlimited government dollars. $170 billion total.

40% were lost in accidents.
 
Lets not attack Azdre.. we appreciate the report and hopefully Nissan will solve the problem.

Perhaps the solution is a small tutorial by Nissan on how to prolong battery life.. something nicely done on a DVD and mailed to each owner. Its very possible the battery was on the low end of the scale from the factory, no way to know unless you plug a GID meter into your Leaf when its new.
 
* We always charge to 100% (we drive it a lot, 17,000 miles in 14 months of driving).

To me, this is not a lot of driving and I don't see a problem charging to 100%. In any case, I think the way the car is being charged has not been described (or I missed the post?). Maybe Azdre is letting her car sit at a high state of charge more often then necessary?

I set my timer so that the car charges as LATE as possible for it to be ready in the morning. I know the "END" timer is not accurate, so I actually pushed it forward an hour since it always charges faster then it expects it to. I then drive to work which brings SOC down to maybe 60%, go to lunch, then go home and I'm usually less then 20%. I rarely charge to 100%, and when I do, I try to time it so it's at 100% when I want to go. Hopefully this charging schedule will keep my batteries going a long time.

Azdre, do let us know the outcome with Nissan!
 
LEAFfan said:
smkettner said:
So if you have no timer set and the blink turns off-on-off-on in the night you get several 100% charges?
I would assume if the timer was set there would be no issue because the timer would not start again once fully charged.
I would sort this out or dump that free blink that may cost you a battery.

First off, the Blink will not charge if the timer is off on both the car and Blink. The Blink isn't the problem. It's all on how you set your timers. My advice is not to use the Blink timer, but to set your LEAF timer to the same time. For instance, I set my LEAF timer to 11AM and 11AM. Now, I can leave it plugged in for pre-conditioning as long as I remove the plug before 11AM. So overnight, it will not charge. It doesn't matter which times you choose, just choose two morning times the same. Also, with the timers set to the same time, anywhere you plug in, it will start charging.
OK maybe I don't understand the Blink. Although if no timer is set on the Leaf I thought it defaulted to just charging immediately to 100%. I assumed the Blink was just always on so you plug in and Leaf just charges to 100%. So I had thought if Blink reboots and brings power back on the Leaf would think it was just plugged in and start again charging to 100%. Apparently it does not do this...... except there are multiple messages that charging was interrupted or completed overnight.

azdre said:
The thing that does concern me with this statement is that the Blink will sometimes (less now than it used to) just run a 2-5 minute charge in the middle of the night for no reason. I elect to get a text message when the car stops or completes charges and sometimes I'd wake up with 2 or 3 charge complete messages.
 
LEAFfan said:
It won't matter where you are located. If you QC more than 6 times in a day or leave it in 122 degree heat for more than 24 hours, then you have a good chance of damaging the battery, not just losing capacity. Also, leaving it at 100% charge for long periods and topping it off when it's already over 80% may damage the pack and have it lose capacity. I'll say it again, these packs were tested extensively (simulated 8yrs/100K miles) here in the extreme heat, were QCd up to six times a day, and lost no more capacity than any other kind of charging. So, unless you have other info, the below 122 degree heat here will NOT be any worse on the capacity as where you are.


I'll take a pizza bet that simulated testing of aging does not match what actually happens to these packs in AZ. Not sure how they simulated 8 years of heating and cooling cycles with aging as they actually happen in the real world which is why it is called simulated. I have seen plenty of simulated battery test claims which never match the real world results.
 
smkettner said:
So if you have no timer set and the blink turns off-on-off-on in the night you get several 100% charges?
I would assume if the timer was set there would be no issue because the timer would not start again once fully charged.
Your assumption that the LEAF timer would not restart is reasonable, given Nissan's concern about topping off, but I haven't found anything that states whether that is true or not. So for now I'm going to have to call it an assumption, not a fact.

You hinted at a mode that sounds like it might be more likely to cause a problem. The Blink has its own timers, which presumably (another assumption) work by cutting and restoring power to the LEAF. The LEAF Owners Manual does say that if power is lost and then restored, while the J1772 connection is maintained, the charger will automatically resume charging. So if the car is left unused but plugged in for days or weeks, and the Blink has an active timer, then it seems the effect could be a daily topping off. Each day when the power is restored the LEAF might decide that the battery charge is a tiny bit below 100% due to very slight losses.

Ray
 
I am thinking this is atypical battery performance, maybe some cells went bad? I really abuse my car. 18k in 10 months, QC all the time (average maybe once every 2 weeks or more), have QC'd multiple times in a day on multiple occasions, charge to 80% during weekdays and 100% in weekends (athough first 6 months was 100% all the time) and dealt with 100+ degree texas summer. I have yet to have capacity loss yet.
 
surfingslovak said:
LEAFfan said:
Just the heat of AZ will NOT damage the battery.
LEAFfan, I must disagree with this statement. High heat will absolutely accelerate the aging process for these batteries.

first off Azdre, dont take our wildass speculations as anything negative to you, because that is not what our comments are and this forum is only to share information and experiences. no matter what the outcome of your situation, we are all GRATEFUL that you have told us what happened. every little piece of info gives us more data which will eventually (some of us are pretty thick-skulled, so it may take a "bit" longer!)

you are helping the next person and us. please do report back here with your experiences with Nissan in resolving this

2nd;

ok, we are back to the degree of degradation. Both your statements have a degree of "correctness"

what do you do with a pot of boiling water that is boiling over?

1) turn down the heat (not an option in AZ)

2) take some water out of the pot. (iow, keep SOC down from full)

neither option will keep the pot from boiling away but it reduces waste and gives you more time.

Nissan has tested the battery pack in extreme temps and for whatever reason, has determined no extra steps were needed to counteract the high temps we might see. now, its pretty common to see solar radiation well into the 140's i am guessing for Phoenix and sure, the recommendation is dont let it sit out in the Sun (mostly due to fear of 2nd and 3rd degree burns i would think!) if possible, etc.
 
Pipcecil said:
I am thinking this is atypical battery performance, maybe some cells went bad? I really abuse my car. 18k in 10 months, QC all the time (average maybe once every 2 weeks or more), have QC'd multiple times in a day on multiple occasions, charge to 80% during weekdays and 100% in weekends (athough first 6 months was 100% all the time) and dealt with 100+ degree texas summer. I have yet to have capacity loss yet.

Because:
1) you didn't leave it @100% (or close to it) for a MONTH, and
2) you don't "top off" (which has now been defined several times) frequently

I too live in Texas and agree with the conclusions that the US just doesn't have the kind of extreme heat (on an extended basis) that would require active battery pack cooling; extreme cold is a different issue (with different symptoms--like obvious short term capacity loss) that is not relevant to this discussion.

This is a very interesting thread and I hope the OP doesn't take any negative comments the wrong way. In fact, this discussion will do a lot of GOOD for current (and future) EV owners.
 
Normally, The Dealer has no access to degradation parameters via it's computer system (Consult III+), only Nissan does. The dealer can see the individual cell voltages and a few other parameters related to detecting and replacing a defective module though. If your degradation is caused by one or more bad cells, then Nissan will likely warranty it. Dealers are bad at understanding all this, so if one dealer effectively tells you to go away, try another. A call to the official Nissan regional service rep would be a good idea too.

No offense, but to me it sounds like abuse to ignore Nissan's suggestions and charge to 100%, let it sit and rarely use it. As several other members have pointed out, you can charge to 100% every day as long as you deplete the pack soon after that charge. Living in a hot climate exacerbates this. Going away with a full charge for an extended time is also a really bad idea.

My advice for the future is to set the 80% stop in your Leaf's charge timer. If you think you might need to go on a long trip, you can hit the override button on the dash or even remotely through CarWings to finish the charge right before you leave. This is how I do it and it works well. On Level II going from 80% to full is finished in under 2 hours, so that's the most notice you'd need.

With an 80% timer limit set, then you can feel free to leave the car plugged in and get your climate pre-conditioning benefit. The car will always stop at 80% even if the Blink reboots or anything similar happens.

If you know you will be storing your car for more than a few weeks, discharge to at least 60% before leaving and either disconnect the 12v battery or connect a "Battery Tender" type trickle charger. You can lower the charge by either a quick aggressive drive, or by running the defrost full-tilt for a while.

Please also don't take all the chatter in the forum for anything more than it is. This is an extremely valuable resource for us to learn about this car, and I think collectively we've amassed a n impressive body of knowledge here. Sharing your experience will greatly aid the rest of us now and in the future.

-Phil
 
Ingineer said:
Please also don't take all the chatter in the forum for anything more than it is. This is an extremely valuable resource for us to learn about this car, and I think collectively we've amassed a n impressive body of knowledge here. Sharing your experience will greatly aid the rest of us now and in the future.
Great post, Phil. Couldn't agree more. Although I'm glad that this topic came up, we don't know if a module was bad or not. Hopefully, the OP can take care of it.
 
Pipcecil said:
I am thinking this is atypical battery performance, maybe some cells went bad? I really abuse my car. I have yet to have capacity loss yet.

Pipcecil, have you checked capacity with a GID meter?
 
At over 20,000 miles and closing in on a year at the end of the month, i have not lost any of the "high voltage battery status" bars.
 
rainnw said:
At over 20,000 miles and closing in on a year at the end of the month, i have not lost any of the "high voltage battery status" bars.

Personally, I find posts describing problems with the Leaf about 1000 times more interesting than posts stating that "my car has no problems", but that's me...
 
RuneW said:
Personally, I find posts describing problems with the Leaf about 1000 times more interesting than posts stating that "my car has no problems", but that's me...
I have a serious problem with my LEAF. It's called "capacity anxiety" because I have no way of knowing whether my battery is 1% degraded or 14% degraded. ;)

[Yeah, I know, Dr. Gary has a pill to cure that, but I'm waiting for Dr. Phil's pills bills. :lol: ]

Ray
 
Herm said:
Pipcecil said:
I am thinking this is atypical battery performance, maybe some cells went bad? I really abuse my car. I have yet to have capacity loss yet.

Pipcecil, have you checked capacity with a GID meter?

Unfortunately, no, I don't have access to one. I will also add that I have been guilty of "topping off." A trip into town for some food, etc. is only about 5-10 miles depending on how far. I do try and really push the engine to burn energy so I at least get a bar down from full (I keep my car charged to 100% on the weekends due to numerous unexpected longer trips into downtown) or 2, but it doesn't always happen. Regardless, I don't mind pushing my car to its limits. Yes, I will try and be nice (like charging to 80% on weekdays, etc.), but if my car gets older faster, eh, lesson learned and I will get another in 8-10 years. I am lucky enough to have a level 2 at home and work so I can stand more battery degradation that most before i am forced to give the leaf up.
 
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