Official Ford Focus Electric Thread

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kubel said:
the LEAF is inferior to the Focus when it comes to overall quality. I'm surprised anyone would dispute this. Though you didn't necessarily dispute this- you just prejudged me.

Since I have no quality issues with the LEAF, it's hard to qualify how a converted Focus has higher "quality". You might be confusing that with features, of which I'd like to have a leather steering wheel. Focus has it, LEAF does not. That's not quality; that's a feature.

So, officially, I dispute your assertion.


But ChaDeMo is dead. I'm not sure how you can ignore this. Automakers want one place to plug in. It's easier for everyone that way. I'm not sure why the Japanese would want two places to plug in. Probably because they had no other choice with no standard being made yet. I commend Nissan for pioneering the idea and doing what was necessary to make it happen with no standard being made yet, but I don't think fanboys should discourage a better solution.

Now, fanboy isn't something I get called everyday!!! Again, I disagree with each of your assertions. ChaDeMo is hardly dead; there will be hundreds of them in the USA, in addition to maybe thousands in the world before a single SAE combo plug is installed anywhere. There will be tens of thousands of cars that use ChaDeMo when SAE anything DC shows up. There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.

Sure, you could be puffing our chest out in that special 'mercian way, and predicting that ChaDeMo is a future Betamax, superior in both quality and engineering, but a failure in a consumer market that equated VHS with VCR, so for that, we'll just have to see. Folks from your special area of the world underestimated the Japanese many, many times. So, back to fanboy. Your blind allegiance to vapor ware and unproven technology versus the already established one seems to me to be the very definition of fanboy.

The "two places to plug in" is a bit of a stretch. I have exactly one place to plug in, properly placed on the front of the car. There are two sockets there. I don't use two at once, nor would there be a time when I would. Would there be an advantage to have the sockets combined for me, the end user? No, none at all. Is there an advantage to the manufacturer to install a frankenplug in a gasoline fuel filler door? They seem to think so, and obviously for car conversions like a Focus, there is probably an advantage to them (but, as we already know, the Focus does not take advantage of this advantage).

Liquid thermal management is superior to air. The FFE will not only provide marginally better range in moderate temperatures, but I have a feeling it will provide substantially better range than the LEAF in winter conditions. They aren't merely comparable and there is no slight advantage. The FFE is the clear winner. Of course, you're paying for it if you get a FFE.

I suspect the simplicity of no heating / cooling LEAF battery will give way to liquid temperature control, or some non-liquid control, much like few cars have adopted the air cooled engines used on piston airplanes, Porsches and Volkswagens.

Warm and cold weather range. Energy efficiency. Quality. Audio. Performance.

Somewhat to perhaps significantly, marginally, doubtful, probably, perhaps.
 
garsh said:
kubel said:
Liquid thermal management is superior to air.
That particular assertion remains to be seen. In theory, LTM should do a much better job of keeping the batteries at their optimum operating temperature. But in practice, it's also a more complicated system, with more things that can go wrong. I would also think that it should be much easier to replace bad cells in a Leaf battery pack than in one where the cells are encased in liquid.

you are kidding right? your statement of the obvious is a value decision we all make and few decide to "rough it" over enjoying new technology. i still know people who have landline phones, and use their cellphone for nothing but making and receiving calls and yes, they can charge their phone twice a week and never worry about a dead battery...then there is the "other" 295 million of us.

yesterday, the temperature was 76º in Puget Sound and we did what everyone does who has not seen such a day in months, we were out and cruising. now, in my Leaf; the same one that gets about 4.4 to 4.7 miles per Kilowatt, i averaged 5.6 miles per K.

it was not due to better driving, better routes, or the phase of the Moon. it all had to do with temperature.

now, since there is no Focus around and all we have to go on is Ford's word, it still remains to be seen whether Ford's battery management system is a viable one. i suspect that there will be much less range degradation in winter (keep in mind, other outside forces play a part like denser cold air, rolling resistance, etc) in the Focus and what part of the expense for that additional management is in the sticker remains to be seen.

but there is 3 active cooling loops for each component along with cabin cooling so that is redundancy X 3. a single segmented heating loop that does control battery pack temps as well. how much overhead this will cause may easily be outweighed by the range benefit.

now, all this might be water under the bridge. Nissan has announced a better heater for the 2013 which is supposed to be like 70% better. i have seen no details on how they plan to do this but this might put the Leaf back to near even performance on the Focus. either way, it seems that each manufacturer is pushing Nissan to be better. i am all for that
 
its clear fast Dc charging raises pack temps and a car with a thermal mgt system capable of cooling the pack during and after fast DC charge will have an advantage in warm weather with multiple fast DC charges in a day trip

is there any car that has both fast charge port and active thermal mgt?

imev ?

all the others have one or the other

fast DC port , but no thermal mgt = Leaf

thermal mgt but no DC port = volt, focus,bmw
 
Roadsters charge pretty quickly and have active thermal management but it's not really fast in relation to capacity.
 
coolfilmaker said:
Roadsters charge pretty quickly and have active thermal management but it's not really fast in relation to capacity.

19kW, max allowed by the current J1772 spec. 20kW if you round up, but basically 240VAC at 80A or so. I have a ClipperCreek CS100 so I can charge any EV up to that rate. Obviously not the LEAF or Focus that fast but a Model S with the $10,000 charger upgrade, yep, that'd work.
 
TonyWilliams said:
There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.
attachment.php


There is at least one car with it.
 
coolfilmaker said:
TonyWilliams said:
There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.
attachment.php


There is at least one car with it.

The pins in this mockup are clearly plastic, what I like to call "movie magic".

There will be 200,000+ cars on the road with Chademo connectors on them and 1000's of Chademo chargers before the very first SAE FC equipped car will be sold. The manufactures of QC see that as well, there are many pictures from EVS26 with QC stations with both Chademo and SAE FC on the same charging station. So whatever standard wins, manufactures will be ready and everyone wins.

Ford's numbers on the FFE as far as production goes isn't that impressive. 10,000 a year is what Ford is planning. Nissan will make that many Leafs every 24 days in Smyrna by the end of this year/first of next year.

As to which car is best? I think both are good, but the FFE is more $ and will be harder to come by than the Leaf. Either way, don't let that stop anyone from buying an EV. Even having a choice of what EV to buy is a small miracle.

We live in amazing times...
 
TurboFroggy said:
coolfilmaker said:
TonyWilliams said:
There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.


There is at least one car with it.

The pins in this mockup are clearly plastic, what I like to call "movie magic".

No movie magic. Actually this is a picture of an SAE DC combo charging prototype installed in a BMW ActiveE and displayed at the recent EVS26 exhibit in Los Angeles. I took a similar picture myself. The car had a special piece of equipment in the trunk that connected the exterior charging receptacle to the battery pack, just for the demo, and we were told that it was actually charging and the BMW folks had to run the air conditioning constantly in the car in order to bleed off power so that the QC would be able to charge. See this thread about EVS26: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5806&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Ford hasn't announced QC on the FFE. They announced it for my Ford Ranger EV back in 1997, I can tell you for sure none of these stations were ever public and my 2000 Ranger EV certainly isn't equipped:

From:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19970911/press006148.html

Ford Takes Delivery of First EV Fast Charger; New AeroVironment System Addresses Range Obstacle
11 September 1997


Ford Takes Delivery of First EV Fast Charger; New AeroVironment System Addresses Range Obstacle

DEARBORN, Mich., Sept. 11 -- Ford Motor Company has
begun using a new technology to address one of the biggest obstacles facing
commercialization of electric vehicles -- driving range.
Ford took delivery today of an electric vehicle fast charging system from
California-based AeroVironment Inc. at its Dearborn Alternative Fuel Vehicle
Center.
The fast charger, named PosiCharge(TM) will significantly advance the
usable daily range of electric vehicles by charging a battery pack in a matter
of minutes instead of hours. Ford will use the new technology initially for
the Ranger Electric pickup. The first vehicles will be in the hands of
customers next year.
"The main obstacles in the way of EVs becoming more mainstream and
acceptable to customers are range and cost. Fast charging will help us
provide vastly increased daily range yet still use today's most affordable
battery option," said John Wallace, director of Ford's Alternative Fuel
Vehicle programs. "The commercial fleets ordering our Ranger EV are already
asking for a fast-charging option."
The production version of the Ranger EV now obtains real world range of 50
miles before requiring a 6-hour recharge. The fast charge option will
recharge 80 percent of the battery in less than 20 minutes. This will allow
the pickup to be driven well over 150 miles per day on the much more
affordable lead acid battery. Lead acid batteries are a fraction of the cost
of other battery technologies.
The delivery of the first production intent PosiCharge Level III fast
charger marks the emergence of a new market. Public infrastructure was
difficult to establish when recharge times were six to eight hours. With the
AeroVironment technology breakthrough, many locations are now viable recharge
sites: restaurants, rest stops and shopping malls.
AeroVironment predicts the PosiCharge will be used extensively by utility
companies and municipal governments to build the so called "electric vehicle
corridors," electric vehicle friendly regions where owners are assured of a
quick recharge during their journeys.
PosiCharge is based on the same technology as AeroViromnent's successful
ABC-150 Power Processing System. The ABC-150 is used by electric vehicles,
OEMs and battery manufacturers around the world to develop and test electric
vehicle components and systems. "By using the ABC-150 architecture," said
AeroVironment Product Line Manager Edward Moore, "we increase the reliability
of PosiCharge. The proven technology and suppliers allow AeroVironment to
assure our customers a high quality product." The technology at use in
PosiCharge represents thousands of hours of testing on the ABC-150 System to
insure that fast charging, when used with proper battery management like the
AeroVironment Smartguard(R) Distributed Battery Management System, does not
damage the battery pack.
The PosiCharge design incorporates the AVCON/Meltric industry standard
connector and complies with SAE standard J-1772 for conductive charging
equipment and J-2293 for communication and control. AeroVironment's first
production deliveries of PosiCharge are for industrial use. A consumer
version will be offered through a nationwide distribution network early next
year.
The Ford Ranger EV production vehicle is the result of 15 years of Ford EV
research and demonstration programs, including one million miles of driving
experience gained during the Ford Ecostar program. "The 1998 Ranger EV you
see today is the product of some of the most advanced, sophisticated EV
testing ever performed by an automaker," said Wallace. "The Ranger EV's
advanced battery system, climate control system and affordable conductive
charging system are just a few of the features we think sets our vehicle apart
from the competition."
The Ranger EV is one of 11 alternative fuel vehicles offered by Ford
during the 1998 model year. 0thers are powered by natural gas, propane,
ethanol or methanol.

SOURCE Ford Motor Company
 
Nice video of Jay Leno driving the Ford Focus EV in this article:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076281_jay-leno-drives-the-focus-electric-and-fusion-plug-in-hybrid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
mitch672 said:
Nice video of Jay Leno driving the Ford Focus EV in this article:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076281_jay-leno-drives-the-focus-electric-and-fusion-plug-in-hybrid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow the Ford guy is nervous around Jay.

Jay asks what it costs. Ford guy answers, "...if you get this vehicle [FFE], after the federal rebate, there is a $7,500 check you get, i think we are in the $32,495 range..." Yeah, someone may want to tell him there's no check waiting for you when you drive home and it is subject to your tax liabilities :shock:

Ford guy, "We went with a 6.6kw charger on this, so you can charge this from zero to empty in 3.5 hrs." Oops

By the way, when the stock video shows the lady opening the charge port it looks kind of akward how you press it and then have to rotate it 180 degrees. She seems to not know how to rotate it and her nails are so close to scratching the car as she rotates it ;)
 
EricBayArea said:
mitch672 said:
Nice video of Jay Leno driving the Ford Focus EV in this article:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076281_jay-leno-drives-the-focus-electric-and-fusion-plug-in-hybrid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow the Ford guy is nervous around Jay. ...
I love the part where he says of the Fusion, "I think we're really proud of it."
 
mitch672 said:
Nice video of Jay Leno driving the Ford Focus EV in this article:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076281_jay-leno-drives-the-focus-electric-and-fusion-plug-in-hybrid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For what otherwise is a fairly sporty car, Ford is really against any right pedal regen. I can't make out what Ford rep is saying about lift throttle regen when he imagines being thrown forward. :? Brake only regen part of "Ford's DNA"?
 
I spotted one for the first time on my way to work yesterday, at Woodside Road and 101 in Redwood City, CA. Looked pretty nice in person, not sure if he noticed my LEAF.

Jay
 
I just aread an article of Jay Leno's experience of driving his Volt for one full year (one year anniversary, as they called it) and how much he likes it because it hardly consumed any gas, and he can take the Volt to Las Vegas if he so decides without worrying about range, etc..
 
mkjayakumar said:
... he can take the Volt to Las Vegas if he so decides without worrying about range, etc..

Because if he had a BEV instead of the Volt, he would not have any other car to drive to Las Vegas?... :lol:
 
amtoro said:
mkjayakumar said:
... he can take the Volt to Las Vegas if he so decides without worrying about range, etc..

Because if he had a BEV instead of the Volt, he would not have any other car to drive to Las Vegas?... :lol:

Because his viewers think Chevy means "buying American".
 
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