2013 Leaf will add 6.6kW & new efficient heater

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All the loads you mention below, are far more intermittent, than a 2-3 hour 7.6 kWh charge session.

No one-except you-said EV charge loads will "kill the grid".

There are costs to charging BEVs during peak demand, that most BEV owners do not have to pay (yet) due to their current (non-TOU) rates.

As far as I'm concerned, you can charge your BEV, run your air conditioner, or do whatever you want, anytime you want, with as much power, as you want to pay for.

I just don't think you should expect others, to subsidise your use.

If you want charge your EV with grid power, during peak demand, it could (gasp!) even be as expensive as Gasoline.

PS. You'd probably save a lot of money, by replacing the electric dryer, and water heater, with natural gas or even propane. Take a look:

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/Fuels/FuelCompare.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tjz said:
I just don't buy this 6-7KW will kill the grid argument. Every time I do the laundry and check out my power usage with my TED, I see my household power spike by just that amount - I have an electric hot water heater and I run my electric dryer. I have a gas oven, but If I had an electric one, and was baking at the same time, I'd see a 10KW spike. The grid is already able to handle those type of fluctuations - I live in a neighborhood with ancient electrical infrastructure and I've not seen exploding transformers or complaints from the utilities when my neighbors and I use our 240V appliances. This is just fear of the unknown, I think.

edatoakrun said:
kmp647 said:
6.6 is a big deal and they should change it on the 2013 model

example, I make my 64 mile rt commute and arrive home at 4 pm with 2-3 bars
I want to use the leaf to drive 14-16 miles each way to baseball practice with my son.

cant do it, even plugged in for 1 hour at the low 3.3k rate i only get to 4 bars and I'm to nervous and take the ICE.

If I had 6.6kw , I would have been up to 6 bars plus by departure time.

Your dream, and your utility's, and your regional electric grid's load managers' nightmares.

Maximum BEV charge demand, perfectly timed for summer afternoon maximum grid demand.

Many new electricity generation plants would need to be built, and the local infrastructure in you neighborhood, would also need to be upgraded, at great expense, since many other BEV owners will have the same plans.

Someone will either have to pay a hell of a lot per kWh for that charging behavior, or you will shift to an alternative.

Even if you get a faster L2, you will probably prefer a much cheaper alternative, a charge in the AM at work (or another L2 paring space) or to use a fast charge station, earlier in the day.
 
smkettner said:
What is left out is pricing. Does everyone think there will be no increase? Will local production save that much?
2012 model might be the low cost option vs the 2013.

I think there would have to be a price increase.

My question, though, is there any reason that they could not offer a 6.6kW charger as an option? Or include it at the SL trim level but not the SV (although frankly I think it would make more sense to have 6.6 kW on vehicles without DC QC port)

Granted, the uninformed public would all just go for 6.6kW anyway and there would not be a lot of 3.3's sold, but if the cost were significant, this would at least be one way they could keep the base price low and yet offer 6.6 kW charging.
 
tjz said:
I just don't buy this 6-7KW will kill the grid argument. Every time I do the laundry and check out my power usage with my TED, I see my household power spike by just that amount - I have an electric hot water heater and I run my electric dryer. I have a gas oven, but If I had an electric one, and was baking at the same time, I'd see a 10KW spike. The grid is already able to handle those type of fluctuations - I live in a neighborhood with ancient electrical infrastructure and I've not seen exploding transformers or complaints from the utilities when my neighbors and I use our 240V appliances. This is just fear of the unknown, I think.
I agree completely. I called Edison about installing four central air conditioners on an older building and Edison could not have cared less for this peak time increase of up to 65 amps on four new 30 amp breakers and single transformer shared with others. But I call to switch to TOU-EV to charge at a low night rate and suddenly someone has to come out to my fairly new home with 200a servce to inspect that enough power is available for the 16a Leaf. :roll:
 
EdmondLeaf said:
I still not see 6.6 kW charger update anywhere, can someone point me where this was announced
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/ma...eld-article-1.1048178?localLinksEnabled=false

In this Facebook post, Jonathon C. goes so far as to say:

Absolutely! 2012 is going to be a big year for the EV Movement and we're looking forward to enhancing the Nissan LEAF in future models. You'll definitely be seeing a 6.6kW onboard charger in the 2013 Nissan LEAF which will reduce the time to charge the LEAFs lithium-ion battery. - Jonathan C., Nissan Social

Considering that he's been hemming and hawing a bit at mentioning 6.6kW until now, I think the cat must be officially out of the bag.
 
IBELEAF said:
I don't care about most updates with the exception of 6.6 kW charger, so maybe if there is enough interest for early adopters to start a petition for Nissan to offer this as an upgrade.
Dream on, but it's never going to happen. It would be far too difficult technically, cost far more than you would want to pay, and have a potential negative impact on future Nissan sales.

Ray
 
IBELEAF said:
I don't care about most updates with the exception of 6.6 kW charger, so maybe if there is enough interest for early adopters to start a petition for Nissan to offer this as an upgrade.

From what little I know, the new 2013 6.6kW charger is in a different location in the car, different size & shape.
I am almost positive that they will NOT offer it as an upgrade to 2011/2012 models.
 
TEG said:
IBELEAF said:
I don't care about most updates with the exception of 6.6 kW charger, so maybe if there is enough interest for early adopters to start a petition for Nissan to offer this as an upgrade.

From what little I know, the new 2013 6.6kW charger is in a different location in the car, different size & shape.
I am almost positive that they will NOT offer it as an upgrade to 2011/2012 models.

Different shape and size? Are you talking the physical charger or the plug?
 
TNleaf said:
TEG said:
From what little I know, the new 2013 6.6kW charger is in a different location in the car, different size & shape.
I am almost positive that they will NOT offer it as an upgrade to 2011/2012 models.
Different shape and size? Are you talking the physical charger or the plug?
It's quite possible that the new charger will be downsized significantly from the current one and be fitted under the hood. This should also free up trunk space and reduce the length of wiring. All good things!
 
Integration with the motor controller / regen unit and site under the hood. Sounds like Renault Zoe way of doing things makes a lot of sense.
 
jstone1 said:
Integration with the motor controller / regen unit and site under the hood. Sounds like Renault Zoe way of doing things makes a lot of sense.

Or if they figure out how to use the motor windings, as part of the charging circuit (the way that AC Propulsion has figured out, used in the BMW Mini E), they could get up to nearly a 18KW onboard charger...
 
drees said:
It's quite possible that the new charger will be downsized significantly from the current one and be fitted under the hood. This should also free up trunk space and reduce the length of wiring. All good things!

I have no need for a 6.6kW charger, but if it means no more hump in the trunk I'd definately want one for that reason only.
 
mitch672 said:
Or if they figure out how to use the motor windings, as part of the charging circuit (the way that AC Propulsion has figured out, used in the BMW Mini E), they could get up to nearly a 18KW onboard charger...
Sorry, you will not see this happening, even though it is elegant, simply because there is no Galvanic isolation.

-Phil
 
tjz said:
I just don't buy this 6-7KW will kill the grid argument. Every time I do the laundry and check out my power usage with my TED, I see my household power spike by just that amount - I have an electric hot water heater and I run my electric dryer. I have a gas oven, but If I had an electric one, and was baking at the same time, I'd see a 10KW spike. The grid is already able to handle those type of fluctuations - I live in a neighborhood with ancient electrical infrastructure and I've not seen exploding transformers or complaints from the utilities when my neighbors and I use our 240V appliances. This is just fear of the unknown, I think.

Consider what the transformer sees. Out of a group of homes, how many are drying clothes at the same time? How many are baking at the same time? How many ,even, have their central AC compressor running at the same time? Compare to an EV where, absent a strong TOU incentive, most everyone is going to plug in when they get home, for a constant multi-hour charge, which is going to be superimposed on what was already the peak load.
 
Nubo said:
Consider what the transformer sees. Out of a group of homes, how many are drying clothes at the same time? How many are baking at the same time? How many ,even, have their central AC compressor running at the same time? Compare to an EV where, absent a strong TOU incentive, most everyone is going to plug in when they get home, for a constant multi-hour charge, which is going to be superimposed on what was already the peak load.
I don't agree; most people will charge at off-peak for cheaper rates using timers. This will be the dead of night when A/C loads are lowest and nothing else is happening. The minimum I typically have seen deployed in the last 30 years is a 25kva transformer per 4 houses, and many are now 40 kva or more. There are some areas with really old infrastructure, but EV rollout isn't going to happen all at once, so the utilities will have time to slowly upgrade.

-Phil
 
I put an end timer of 8am on my car. I don't have TOU, but I'd rather load the grid when it can best be utilized.
 
Nubo said:
tjz said:
I just don't buy this 6-7KW will kill the grid argument. Every time I do the laundry and check out my power usage with my TED, I see my household power spike by just that amount - I have an electric hot water heater and I run my electric dryer. I have a gas oven, but If I had an electric one, and was baking at the same time, I'd see a 10KW spike. The grid is already able to handle those type of fluctuations - I live in a neighborhood with ancient electrical infrastructure and I've not seen exploding transformers or complaints from the utilities when my neighbors and I use our 240V appliances. This is just fear of the unknown, I think.

Consider what the transformer sees. Out of a group of homes, how many are drying clothes at the same time? How many are baking at the same time? How many ,even, have their central AC compressor running at the same time? Compare to an EV where, absent a strong TOU incentive, most everyone is going to plug in when they get home, for a constant multi-hour charge, which is going to be superimposed on what was already the peak load.

I agree almost exactly except for the last statement "Compare to an EV where, absent a strong TOU incentive, most everyone is going to plug in when they get home". I don't do that and I don't have any TOU incentives and have solar to cover the Leaf to boot. I think in the 2 months I've been driving my Leaf I've only done that twice. A couple of other times, it would have been really nice to have used 6.6KW (or QC) so I didn't have to drive my ICE car.

I think the average EV owner is sophisticated enough to know that isn't the best way to load up the grid and at least for the Leaf the timers are very easy to set and forget once you get used to them. If the Leaf didn't have timers, I'd use the one built into my EVSE. Don't sell us short.

I think a far bigger worry is the amount of new and existing AC units running at peak load that we are going to see as things continue to warm up. I don't think EV peak load will be a worry for decades compared to other loads. I'd love to see EV adoption ramp up to the point it did become a worry, and as you mention, a strong TOU incentive will change most folks behavior w/o any change to the grid other than smart metering.
 
Ingineer said:
Nubo said:
Consider what the transformer sees. Out of a group of homes, how many are drying clothes at the same time? How many are baking at the same time? How many ,even, have their central AC compressor running at the same time? Compare to an EV where, absent a strong TOU incentive, most everyone is going to plug in when they get home, for a constant multi-hour charge, which is going to be superimposed on what was already the peak load.
I don't agree; most people will charge at off-peak for cheaper rates using timers. This will be the dead of night when A/C loads are lowest and nothing else is happening. The minimum I typically have seen deployed in the last 30 years is a 25kva transformer per 4 houses, and many are now 40 kva or more. There are some areas with really old infrastructure, but EV rollout isn't going to happen all at once, so the utilities will have time to slowly upgrade.

-Phil


Note, I said "absent a strong TOU incentive"...
 
tjz said:
Nubo said:
I agree almost exactly except for the last statement "Compare to an EV where, absent a strong TOU incentive, most everyone is going to plug in when they get home". I don't do that and I don't have any TOU incentives and have solar to cover the Leaf to boot. I think in the 2 months I've been driving my Leaf I've only done that twice. A couple of other times, it would have been really nice to have used 6.6KW (or QC) so I didn't have to drive my ICE car.

I think the average EV owner is sophisticated enough to know that isn't the best way to load up the grid and at least for the Leaf the timers are very easy to set and forget once you get used to them. If the Leaf didn't have timers, I'd use the one built into my EVSE. Don't sell us short.

Imho, the average EV owner today is a very different thing than the average EV owner under mass-adoption. Today it doesn't matter to the grid when *we* are charging. When there are a EVs in California, it will start to matter and those owners are not all going to have the same sensibilities as the early adopters.
 
Nubo said:
Imho, the average EV owner today is a very different thing than the average EV owner under mass-adoption. Today it doesn't matter to the grid when *we* are charging. When there are a EVs in California, it will start to matter and those owners are not all going to have the same sensibilities as the early adopters.
This is a self-regulating problem. If the "non-sensible" EV owners start all charging at peak times, the utility will have no choice but to implement high peak rates, then their wallet part of their brains will adjust said behavior, either that, or they blow their (and their neighbors) transformer fuse, and are without power for a few hours at a time over and over until the utility upgrades it! =)

-Phil
 
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