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TickTock
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

12% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:20 pm

After analyzing my Leaf for a full week and confirming that my car showed 80% lower capacity then a new car, my reduced capacity was described to the dealer technician by Nissan engineers as "consistent with normal battery operation/capacity." The technician was really helpful and spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. His own test confirmed that my range was 80.4% of the range of their demo when run side-by-side under the same conditions (39 miles driven + 35 miles remaining versus 39 miles driven and 53 miles remaining). Sent multiple logs to Japan for analysis, was asked to get more data, more people looked at them but finally the decision was made that there wasn't anything wrong with the car. Dealer isn't allowed to make any repairs or replacements without Nissan sign off so all I ended up with was the following explanation:


The engineers contacted me, this morning, with their analysis of your LEAF’s battery performance. It was their conclusion that the data we collected is consistent with normal battery operation/capacity; taking into consideration the number of charge cycles, age and regular use. When I questioned the varying results we found when your range/capacity was compared to our demo unit (@200 total miles on demo vehicle vs 11K on your LEAF) I was informed that the results were consistent with the more rapid decrease in battery performance that occurs during the first 6 months of service. At that point, engineering informed me that the rate of battery degradation levels out to minimal decreases. Long term capacity estimated at 80% after 5 years. I was able to complete the “Cell voltage loss inspection” with a result of 3696 mV and “No module requires replacement” result (I placed a copy of this result in your vehicle). According to TSB# NTB11-076a (copy also in your vehicle) for an average economy of 4.4 estimated range to 1 segment is 67-76 miles, which falls in line with the 35 miles remaining after the 38.8 mile test drive of your LEAF.

Thank you for your patience while we evaluated your range concerns and the detailed information you were able to provide. It is a pleasure to work with an informed and conscious owner. Your LEAF is fully charged, clean and ready for you.


I cannot believe that my battery will not degrade any more then an additional 0.4% over the next 4.25 years (since 80 is expected and I am at 80.4) and I said as much but my only option now is to wait and watch it.

Although I have no doubt that I will still see further degradation over the next few years, I have not yet seen any. In fact, over the last few months my capacity has increased slightly (+6%) from when I first started monitoring (255 gids now versus 239 gids in October). So I'll be watching as summer comes along to see if the low was seasonal. Maybe at the 1 year mandatory battery inspection I'll learn more...

They (Earnhardt Nissan) didn't try to charge me anything despite providing a rental for the week so that was nice.

I also think it's nice how they appreciate a "conscious" owner (as opposed to all the unconscious owners they deal with) :-).
Last edited by TickTock on Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10085
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:21 pm

Well, that sucks. But, perhaps you could change the title to reflect the "20% loss".

If it were me, I'd probably consider if I needed that additional 20% for my daily driving now. If so, I'd just trade it off now.

Of course, we don't know where you'll be in 5-10 years and 100,000 miles. I'm not thinking it'll be good.

smkettner
Posts: 7264
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:42 pm

So did you lose one of the capacity bars?
How often do you charge to 100%?
Anything odd about your driving or charging routine?
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

GaslessInSeattle
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 2:15 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 850

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:12 pm

Sounds like you got a lemmon. I hate to admit it, but if I were you I'd call around to dealers, see if there is the same car available in a 2012 with CWP, tell them you want to trade up for the heated seats and steering wheel if they are willing to give you a decent deal. Deduct the $7,500 rebate you are getting, minus any other rebates minus some decent depreciation per mile and see if you can get a trade in value close to what makes sense to you. If Nissan is unwilling to admit a problem, then let them have it back and deal with it. Since they claim it's normal, there is nothing compelling you to bring up the issue. Your car is the only car I've heard of losing serious capacity... super lame that they won't do anything about it. Had a similar issue a while back with a toyota hybrid... went to another dealer and got over bluebook for the car in trade in.

moderator please change the title to "20% capacity loss..."
Gasless: Silver 2012 SL, traded in for Lease on 1/13
Tesla S P85, Gray, pano, carbon fiber, took delivery: 2-9-13... LOVE this car!
9.8 kW PV Solar installed 9/12, http://www.westseattlenaturalenergy.com

IBELEAF
Posts: 1235
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:23 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Apr 2011
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:16 pm

Something isn't right here...There are people on this forum who owned Leaf for longer time and even put over 20k and didn't report any degradation.
Currently: '12 Volt (12k) since 7/2012
Previously: '11 Leaf SL (w/ 12k miles & 16 month ownership)

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TonyWilliams
Posts: 10085
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:31 am

IBELEAF wrote:Something isn't right here...There are people on this forum who owned Leaf for longer time and even put over 20k and didn't report any degradation.


Obviously, something isn't right. It has nothing to do with other cars and how many miles those cars have. Nissan has quite ungraciously swept this under the carpet, like we kind of knew they would. I'll bet a nickel that all 12 capacity bars are still lit up, even though one is supposed to disappear at 85% and below.

Nissan is going to always hedge their mistakes to their advantage. Every time.

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:41 am

255 GIDs means 9% below standard.. probably a low capacity module from day one.. perhaps a normal variation in cell manufacture. I suspect that bad module will quickly die as you deep cycle it. Interesting that only GIDometer owners will find out issues like this, perhaps prior to purchase.

Ready for some do-it-yourself repairs?

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DaveEV
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Posts: 6228
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:25 am

"When I questioned the varying results we found when your range/capacity was compared to our demo unit (@200 total miles on demo vehicle vs 11K on your LEAF) I was informed that the results were consistent with the more rapid decrease in battery performance that occurs during the first 6 months of service."
This is crazy considering that you have seen similar GID counts for at least half the time you've owned the car now... Looking at your post history you first posted a low full GID count way back at the beginning of October when you only had 4,000 miles on it.

Stories of 10% capacity loss in 4 months and Nissan not doing anything isn't going to help adoption much...

It sure is going to encourage people to buy GID meters or LEAFSCANs when they're available to fully document battery capacity from new...

Looking at your commute logs, you're getting 215-220 GIDs for 80% charges and 250-265 GIDs for 100% charges. You seem to have a lot of voltage fluctuation on your 80% charges - anyone else have data to compare?

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surfingslovak
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:35 pm

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:38 am

drees wrote:Stories of 10% capacity loss in 4 months and Nissan not doing anything isn't going to help adoption much... It sure is going to encourage people to buy GID meters or LEAFSCANs when they're available to fully document battery capacity from new...

Yes, this story is quite discouraging. Thankfully, this seems to be an isolated case, but then most owners are not as technical or "conscious", as the dealer put it. I have heard through the grapevine that battery degradation figures are a closely guarded secret. Considering that, and given this particular story, I believe that Phil's new product will become the gold standard, and many, if not all, Leaf owners will purchase it. Alone the ability to track pack temperature, and display actual battery capacity will make it worth it.

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: 80% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:57 am

drees wrote:Stories of 10% capacity loss in 4 months and Nissan not doing anything isn't going to help adoption much...


I bet it was from day 1

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