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dutchinchicago

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2011
Messages
104
I am trying to figure out if my Leaf has a problem or my bad range is due to the weather.

It is around 20 around here at the moment and I am getting about 55 mile range out of my leaf.

This is my performance for Jan:
Distance traveled: 285.9
Average Energy Economy: 3.3 miles/kWh
Electricity Consumption: 86.1 kWh.

Here is a recent trip where the car went from 100% full to low battery warning and really made me wish I never bought the car:
Distance Traveled: 57.5
Average Energy Economy: 3.7 miles/kWh
Electricity Consumption 15.7 kWh
Travel Time: 2.4 hrs.

This is traveling without the heater on and avoiding highway about half of the trip to preserve batteries. I am running in eco mode all the way and use cruise control where possible.

Is 15.7 kWh all we can get out of the battery?

I tried to sell the Leaf but three weeks after paying $38000 I was offered $19000 for it by my Nissan Dealer.

So far the car really sucks.
 
With the ambient temperature hovering around 20°F, and your car parked outside, 15.7 kWh of usable capacity before the Low Battery warning seems quite normal. The only way to improve on that would be to warm the battery pack. If you could park in an insulated garage at night, that would undoubtedly make a significant difference. However, not everyone can park in a garage (including myself). Normal charging and driving tend to warm the pack somewhat, but probably not enough for your comfort. Using Quick Chargers haw a larger warming effect, so if you have the opportunity to incorporate Quick Charging into your occasional, longer drives, that would have the double benefit of adding charge quickly and extending the range due to warming the pack.

In spite of your use of ECO mode and efforts to avoid highways, your miles per kWh figures (3.3 to 3.7) are what I would consider a bit low. I've never had numbers that low, even in similarly cold temperatures, though admittedly I am practiced at some hypermiling techniques. My suggestion would be to use the highways, and maintain a steady 55 mph whenever you need maximum range. It takes some practice to achieve high efficiency in stop and go driving. On the other hand, maintaining 55 mph on the highway, particularly on flat terrain, is something anyone can do. My guess is that your overall efficiency will actually go up.
 
At the Low Battery warning you have ~20% SOC remaining. So the total capacity at that temperature is ~19.6 kWh or about a 7% drop.
 
First off, it sounds like you want to offload your car as soon as possible, so I assume any advice would fall on deaf ears.

However, for anyone else who is interested, it has been in the low 30s by me in the morning for the past month and I found something that helps a little. For the first couple months after getting the car I had my timers set to charge at 12:10am to take use of off-peak pricing. This usually would get my car charged by 3am or 4am. However, about 3 weeks ago I changed my timers from STARTING at 12:10am to ENDING at 7:30am (roughly when I leave the house). I have found that instead of 4 battery temp bars I now see 5 battery temp bars. By leaving the house with the car's batteries warm, as others have stated, it provides more usable electricity... at least it seems to any ways.
 
EricBayArea said:
However, for anyone else who is interested, it has been in the low 30s by me in the morning for the past month and I found something that helps a little. For the first couple months after getting the car I had my timers set to charge at 12:10am to take use of off-peak pricing. This usually would get my car charged by 3am or 4am. However, about 3 weeks ago I changed my timers from STARTING at 12:10am to ENDING at 7:30am (roughly when I leave the house). I have found that instead of 4 battery temp bars I now see 5 battery temp bars. By leaving the house with the car's batteries warm, as others have stated, it provides more usable electricity... at least it seems to any ways.

Eric, I've found that the LEAF is way overestimating the charge time and it completes an 80% charge 2-3 hours prior to the END timer time (100% charge is better, but still finishes about 2 hours prior). Are you seeing this as well? I'm thinking if I really wanted to take advantage of this effect I would need to set the END timer to 1.5 hours AFTER I wanted to leave (actually I already do this for 100% charges because my 100% charge timer is mainly for weekends (later departure time) and I'm too lazy to change for mid-week 100% charges.
 
My stats for jan month to date

Miles 868
Avg economy 3.9 miles/kwh
Consumption. 227
Travel time 35 hours

Dutchinchicago.. My driving technique seems similar to yours. Ive confidently achieved more than 50 miles in recent temps with 20-30 miles remaining Today is much colder at 0., so Id expect to have maybe low 10 miles remaining when I get home.
 
lpickup said:
EricBayArea said:
However, for anyone else who is interested, it has been in the low 30s by me in the morning for the past month and I found something that helps a little. For the first couple months after getting the car I had my timers set to charge at 12:10am to take use of off-peak pricing. This usually would get my car charged by 3am or 4am. However, about 3 weeks ago I changed my timers from STARTING at 12:10am to ENDING at 7:30am (roughly when I leave the house). I have found that instead of 4 battery temp bars I now see 5 battery temp bars. By leaving the house with the car's batteries warm, as others have stated, it provides more usable electricity... at least it seems to any ways.

Eric, I've found that the LEAF is way overestimating the charge time and it completes an 80% charge 2-3 hours prior to the END timer time (100% charge is better, but still finishes about 2 hours prior). Are you seeing this as well? I'm thinking if I really wanted to take advantage of this effect I would need to set the END timer to 1.5 hours AFTER I wanted to leave (actually I already do this for 100% charges because my 100% charge timer is mainly for weekends (later departure time) and I'm too lazy to change for mid-week 100% charges.

I believe you're missing the point (unless I mis-read your post): only set an END timer and the car will eventually figure out how to end within an hour of that time. For example, I set an END timer of 6am and my Leaf typically finishes around 5:30am, which leaves the batts reasonably warm when I leave. There was a period when I "confused" the charging cycle and it was finishing charges around 3am, but eventually it moved the charging window back towards 6am.
 
lpickup said:
Eric, I've found that the LEAF is way overestimating the charge time and it completes an 80% charge 2-3 hours prior to the END timer time (100% charge is better, but still finishes about 2 hours prior).

Are you sure that the current time on the charge timer is set correctly. The charge timer has its own clock (not same as dash display).

Mine was set to Pacific time when I got the car. I changed it to mountain time and now the charge finishes 15 to 30 minutes before the "End Time" that I have set.

KJD
 
dutchinchicago said:
I am trying to figure out if my Leaf has a problem or my bad range is due to the weather.

It is around 20 around here at the moment and I am getting about 55 mile range out of my leaf......

Here is a recent trip where the car went from 100% full to low battery warning and really made me wish I never bought the car:
Distance Traveled: 57.5
Average Energy Economy: 3.7 miles/kWh
Electricity Consumption 15.7 kWh


You just said you drove 57 miles to Low Battery Warning, which indicates a far greater range than 55 miles, wouldn't you agree? Your range doesn't end at LBW, but has about 17% more battery to propel you. NOTE: I do not use the dash mounted "GuessOmeter" to derive range data. It's far too unreliable or accurate.

So, 3.7 multiplied by 15.7 equal about 58 miles. That data makes sense, and with 17% battery power remaining at the first "Low Battery Warning", you have about 19kWh total in the battery. At a battery temperature of 70F, you'd have 21kWh, therefore the temperature on the battery reduced your total energy by 2kWh, or about 10%. Therefore, your total range on your quoted trip is 3.7 (assuming the same energy consumption) multiplied by 19 equals 70 miles. That's 3 miles less than the EPA rating of 73 miles; data you knew when you bought the car (or should have known).

But, I'm not going to make excuses for Nissan. They do a very poor job of trying to stating the facts, on purpose in my opinion, and all the above data is what we've worked out on this forum and amongst ourselves.

Considering your temperature of 20F, that's excellent range (you probably didn't want to hear that). If, in fact, the battery were 20F, I'd expect a much lower capacity.

Do you store the car in a garage? If not, can you? Any economy figures in the 3 range, like your 3.7, is fairly normal for new drivers to EVs. With a little work, you should be able to get above 4, which would help your range a bit. I think I read that you weren't using the heater, but presumably the seat and wheel warmers. That should save you a bunch of range.

Can you have yourself, or somebody else, install an electric battery warming blanket to the underside of the battery? That's very easy to do, and you can plug it in to 120v just like gasoline cars, to warm it up. CAUTION: Don't use an oil pan heater; they are too hot. Nothing over 100F/40C, please!!!

Preheat that cabin with the J1772 !!! Use your timer, or smartphone to activate it.

Charging the battery just before driving helps get the battery temp up, but eliminates an chance for cell balancing, which takes 1 to 4 hours after the battery reaches 100% charge and remains plugged in to the J1772.
 
KJD said:
lpickup said:
Eric, I've found that the LEAF is way overestimating the charge time and it completes an 80% charge 2-3 hours prior to the END timer time (100% charge is better, but still finishes about 2 hours prior).

Are you sure that the current time on the charge timer is set correctly. The charge timer has its own clock (not same as dash display).

Mine was set to Pacific time when I got the car. I changed it to mountain time and now the charge finishes 15 to 30 minutes before the "End Time" that I have set.

KJD

I'll check that. The dash (next to the speedo) and LCD screen clocks both read Eastern Time Zone, but I'll see if there is a third clock I need to set somewhere. That's a good theory.

Stanton said:
I believe you're missing the point (unless I mis-read your post): only set an END timer and the car will eventually figure out how to end within an hour of that time.

Yes, I think you mis-read my post. I am definitely using an END-time only timer (set for 6:30am on weekdays, 80% charge, 8:30am on weekends, 100% charge). Here are my stop times (all times AM):

80% charge / 6:30am target END time: 3:36 3:43 3:43 3:53 3:52 3:45 3:35 3:28 3:26 3:24
100% charge / 8:30am target END time: 5:44 5:37 5:14 5:22 5:20 5:37 5:49

I will say for the most part it is quite consistent, just really early!

I've heard a theory that it builds in enough time to do a cell balance if needed (but possibly only for the 100% charges)
 
TonyWilliams said:
Any economy figures in the 3 range, like your 3.7, is fairly normal for new drivers to EVs.

My wife got 4.6 for the day the other day in 30-ish temps and with about 15 miles on the highway. I have no idea how she does it. I struggle to get 3.9 going downhill!

Plus, somehow this woman that started panicking when the gas gauge hit 1/4 and I didn't immediately pull into a gas station has no qualms about making her return trip home with only 2-3 battery bars showing. The LEAF has changed her into someone I barely know! :lol:
 
TonyWilliams said:
lpickup said:
her return trip home with only 2-3 battery bars showing. The LEAF has changed her into someone I barely know! :lol:
My wife won't even get in the car with only 2-3 bars showing!!! Well, a few times.
"Only" 2-3 bars? That could equate to close to 1/3 of a charge remaining! :D
 
To clarify for the questions, when I say I am using an "end time" I am ONLY using an end time and NOT a start time.

I too am seeing that my Leaf will finish 30-45min ahead of schedule. I think Nissan is calculating for some fluctuation in charging [insert correct word like voltage, wattage, amperage, etc.] whereas, at least at my house, it must say consistent enough to finish ahead of schedule.

FWIW, my Leaf sits in my decently insulated garage. Even on mornings where it has been a freezing-for-California 28 degrees, the coldest I've seen the Leaf is 48. On nights I don't charge my leaf I typically see 4 battery temp bars. On nights where I do charge my Leaf and it finishes right before I leave, I see 5 battery temp bars.

...I really wish I could see the actual battery temperature :)
 
abasile said:
TonyWilliams said:
lpickup said:
her return trip home with only 2-3 battery bars showing. The LEAF has changed her into someone I barely know! :lol:
My wife won't even get in the car with only 2-3 bars showing!!! Well, a few times.
"Only" 2-3 bars? That could equate to close to 1/3 of a charge remaining! :D

More like 1/4 (3/12 = 1/4), which was her old standard for "better fill it up immediately". But I did see your smiley!
 
EricBayArea said:
...I really wish I could see the actual battery temperature :)
Gascant loaned me his SOC meter, and I think Gary's CAN bus code guesses seem to work pretty well. It would be great to get more data on this to confirm.
 
Thanks for your replies.

It makes me feel a lot better knowing that other people are getting simular ranges. Maybe I panick a bit too much with the car reaches low battery warning. Having two small children in the car with freezing temperatures outside (and inside :D ) makes your worry a bit more.

I have been looking forward to getting this car for 1 1/2 years. The adjustment is probably bigger than I had expected and maybe in a months time I am completly used to living with range anxiety.
 
Do not forget the water on the road. At the same temperature I have seen a big drop in range due to a lot of water on the road. It can realy rain here on the west coast, for days.
 
dutchinchicago said:
Thanks for your replies.

It makes me feel a lot better knowing that other people are getting simular ranges. Maybe I panick a bit too much with the car reaches low battery warning. Having two small children in the car with freezing temperatures outside (and inside :D ) makes your worry a bit more.

I have been looking forward to getting this car for 1 1/2 years. The adjustment is probably bigger than I had expected and maybe in a months time I am completly used to living with range anxiety.
Assuming that you are already familiar with Tony's range chart, you might want to check out a doc I compiled for the reverse SOC project. It allows you to tailor the range prediction to your car and driving conditions.

http://bitly.com/rangechart

There are couple of values you can adjust. I would use 19.5 or 20 kWh of usable battery capacity for ambient temperatures around 35F, and perhaps 18.5 or 19 kWh if it's around 0F. We know that energy economy suffers in lower temps, since there is a gauge for that on the dash. Unfortunately, we only have rough estimates for battery capacity reduction in low temperatures. It would be good to get more accurate data on this.
 
I have not found the charts to be that helpful unless I must drive the car without prewarming. seems that most folks are prewarming on cold days, so you can expect to do better than the charts if you can get the battery temp up a bit. I've had good luck using the prewarming function to warm the interior of the car and the battery and improve range substantially. I charge to 80% the night before and then heat for an hour or more sometimes in the morning. Seems like as little as the battery temp gauge tells us, that there can be a big difference between 4 and 5 bars. the colder it gets, the longer I have to preheat to topp off the battery. At some point, and I'm not sure how cold, the prewarming no longer charges the battery. In this case, I still charge to 80% and then prewarm then charge most of the rest of the way and prewarm some more... if I really need to eek out every mile of the range for a long trip. Heating/charging till you see 5 bars seems to make quite a difference. We haven't seen much whether below 30 here... I kind of wish it would dip into the teens to see if I can still get the 80ish miles I'm seeing in the 30's.

Now that I'm seeing how much of a difference it seems to make to be able to warm up the battery, I am looking into insulating the garage, which is something we need anyway, since the garage is a big source of heat loss for the house anyway.
 
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