Nissan Engineering Team Visit Dec. 3rd: Recap

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One other thought - in terms of owner feedback to Nissan - I think they value specific examples of specific situations that happened that they can work to improve. They are flooded with unqualified, unproven, sometimes "pie in the sky" ideas and those don't get nearly as much consideration as a specific story of something that happened to an owner. Somewhat along the lines of "We have to justify everything we do, and everything we do has to be done to solve a specific problem."

To go along with that, I got the impression that they have been seriously looking into the questions brought up about oddities with low speed braking behavior. Also, anytime someone gets in a situation where they run out of charge and have to be towed they would want to know why that happened.
 
The tone of the meeting was extremely positive. The Chief Vehicle Engineer called it a great first birthday party for the LEAF and he and the other members of the Nissan contingent were clearly heartened by the level of enthusiasm displayed by the group. Mr. and Mrs. Gascant, Kim, Waidy, Phil, and the other organizers did a terrific job in putting the meeting together.

It wasn't until after the meeting that I hit upon the proper metaphor to describe what ails the GOM, aka DTE meter: it's bipolar. When the LEAF is headed uphill, it grows depressed and overly pessimistic about its future range. It sheds miles in a frantic and demented manner. But, when it's going downhill, the DTE experiences a sense of euphoria, and believes that it can go for miles and miles and miles, and becomes completely disconnected from reality. This behavior is particularly ironic in a machine powered by lithium.

The most impressive visual in the CVE's presentation showed the LEAF driving on water. Or, more precisely, through a road flooded by 750 mm [30"] of water. It was astonishing to see the water level rise above the top of the charging port while the car plowed blithely through the waves, seemingly unaffected by the deluge.
 
Actually, that would be what is known as Reverse Bipolar, but I love it!!!
oakwcj said:
It wasn't until after the meeting that I hit upon the proper metaphor to describe what ails the GOM, aka DTE meter: it's bipolar. When the LEAF is headed uphill, it grows depressed and overly pessimistic about its future range. It sheds miles in a frantic and demented manner. But, when it's going downhill, the DTE experiences a sense of euphoria, and believes that it can go for miles and miles and miles, and becomes completely disconnected from reality. This behavior is particularly ironic in a machine powered by lithium.
 
oakwcj said:
The most impressive visual in the CVE's presentation showed the LEAF driving on water. Or, more precisely, through a road flooded by 750 mm [30"] of water. It was astonishing to see the water level rise above the top of the charging port while the car plowed blithely through the waves, seemingly unaffected by the deluge.

They were showing some clips from this video:
http://youtu.be/xxL4LVgdP7E?t=25s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
I find quite silly (annoying and unproductive) the idea that you can or would try to keep secret stuff Nissan staff told to 100 people in a room, when those listeners are not part of the Nissan organization and have no institutional restrictions on them.
It would serve the community best, in my view, to share as much of the non-pictorial information as possible.
But you guys (I assume mostly guys) were there and I hope you see the benefit in giving the rest of us a full report.
thanks,
as ever,
 
Originally, the meeting was intended to be private in the sense that Nissan did not want any journalists or press coverage. That would have required high level approval and would have led to them saying very little at all. We had originally wanted to do a webcast, but that was also discouraged. During the last few days, Nissan added Mark Perry and Tim Gallagher to the attendance list, which swung the meeting to more of a "town hall" format. They also sent their North American Quality Director, who was quite open to all the feedback, especially on the SOC and Range gauges (the latter they call "Distance to Empty").

Of course, everything that we, as owners, presented is public since we gathered a good chunk of it from this forum. We'll figure out a way to post that material somewhere--suggestions welcomed. Nissan did not provide copies of their materials so we won't be able to post those.

We're still working on official counts--the Google folks tell me that they set up 180 chairs in the room and it seemed like they were all full. Everyone was required to get badges, so we'll be able to get the count soon. Charging and parking was spread out among 3 sites. There were 84 LEAFs on the main meeting site and somewhere between 20-32 off site, making a total of 104 LEAFs minimum (which totally impressed Nissan). We went through 15 boxes of Costco pizza and it ended up not being enough. (Note to self: Next time people say they don't want pizza, don't listen.) LEAF owners drove from as far away as 90 miles, and one stopped in on his way down from Seattle (not in his LEAF). We also had tbleakne and TonyWilliams from San Diego.

The notes and impressions posted by others, above, are fairly accurate. Mark Perry did say they would periodically meet with us and possibly other owners' groups. Kadota-san's presentations were impressive and well received. While we didn't expect any decisions to be made on the spot, I think the most successful things we accomplished were getting them to understand why portable charging is so important and that they should do more research on the DTE and SOC gauges. Nissan told us that they were impressed with the level of enthusiasm and professionalism--the Quality Director told me he had never seen a car club with such well informed and passionate members.

Given the realities of post-tsunami Japan, they have stepped up their efforts on the home interface unit for the LEAF, (vehicle to home, or V2H) and are deploying it there. We lobbied to get them to set some up in members homes over here as well.

One thing that was completely successful was that we started off the meeting telling Nissan that we wanted to help them sell more LEAFs and future EV's, which removed any tone of defensiveness. If/When Nissan does decide to have other meetings, my advice would be to keep this mind.
 
Here are a couple more photos, taken by our host, with his phone.
Looking down on the outdoor scene from the 3rd floor of the building (during the break in the meeting); Kadota-san is talking with 2 members of his team at the back and left of the silver LEAF.
img20111203160440.jpg


Inside the meeting room
img20111203131800.jpg
 
edatoakrun said:
Any discussion of how Nissan can assist in US DC Charge infrastructure development?

Any discussion of whether Nissan will participate in a SAE DC charge standard, when and if it becomes reality in the US?

The second issue wasn't discussed, at least not in the public meeting. As to the first, Mark Perry pointed to the relatively low price [$10k] of its new QC, which has recently been UL approved. He said that there are 60 QC stations in Oregon. In California, at least, the most serious problems seem to be the cost of installation and high utility demand charges. Nissan was vague about what, if anything, it might do to assist with deployment.
 
I'm not sure that anyone has a complete set of notes, so keep asking questions and we will answer them here. At a high level, Nissan was interested in getting focused feedback on the SOC/DTE gauges, portable EVSE, and LEAF IT systems. Some charging infrastructure was discussed (oakwcj's post above). We didn't get into things that were obvious (e.g., cloth armrests). They did give us a survey to fill out (on the above topics plus driving and charging habits), and in return we each received a little model LEAF.
 
evnow said:
So, how does the DTE meter work now ?

Poorly. :lol:

Kadota-san did respond to the discussion, but I'm not sure precisely what he said, so I won't try to characterize it, except that he acknowledged how difficult it is to measure SOC under load and how many variables there are in predicting future miles per kWh. He talked about mysterious shifts in SOC. Perhaps Gascant or one of the other organizers will want to be more specific.
 
One very important point made on the DTE / GuessOmeter was that an accurate SOC of the 96 measured cell pairs (192 total cells) could only be made at start up. This is where the LEAF measures the Open Circuit Voltage (OCV).

This cannot be accurately measured with a load, where only an estimate can be derived from voltage and amps. Also, just after charging and discharging, OCV cannot be measured because of chemical reaction in the battery.
 
I think the meeting was well described in the posts by gascant, TEG, oakwcj and cwerdna (and probably others to come). By my tally there were 19 Nissan visitors (including 2 PR members from LA). We had a lot more information than we could cover in the allotted time, so some upgrades/mods and "suggested improvements" were not discussed at all. However, Nissan has all the information we prepared for the meeting, including a "suggested improvements" spreadsheet based on the information gathered from the MNL forum on a post by Phil. We also had other data that was presented. We also provided Nissan with a powerpoint presentation on the upgrades/mods that was used as an appendix, because Nissan requested specific topics (EVSE, SOC, IT) for discussion. Also, one of our members (turbo3) had the presentations translated into Japanese for the visitors) and provided to them as hard copies In addition, I have met several times with the local Nissan representative to discuss the information that was not presented.

Obviously, we could not address all attendees questions/concerns at the meeting, but we tried our best. Whether the information is proprietary or not, I think the spontaneous/simultaneous comments from the audience were not conducive to getting a response from Nissan Japan. They need time to digest/understand the comments, especially when they come from several directions and rapidly.

We originally tried to restrict the discussion because of the limited time, and allow Nissan sufficient time for their questions. However, we got little response from the visitors from Japan on technical issues. Kadota-san did provide more information on the battery and other tests (water, lightning), which was already mentioned. One thing Nissan should have noticed is that there is never a dull moment at a BayLEAF meeting, and if they want comments/suggestions/answers, our meetings are the place to be.

It should also be mentioned that the Electric Automotive Association presented Kadota-san (Nissan Japan) and Mark Perry (Nissan NA) with awards for the LEAF. Also, one of our local LEAF owners generously provided the Nissan Japan visitors a gift from California that will require them to check their luggage at the airport (assuming it is not gone before they leave).

Great meeting and thank you all for coming to show your enthusiasm for the LEAF.

Kim
 
oakwcj said:
evnow said:
So, how does the DTE meter work now ?

Poorly. :lol:

Kadota-san did respond to the discussion, but I'm not sure precisely what he said, so I won't try to characterize it, except that he acknowledged how difficult it is to measure SOC under load and how many variables there are in predicting future miles per kWh. He talked about mysterious shifts in SOC. Perhaps Gascant or one of the other organizers will want to be more specific.


i think what he was trying to say is that the only time you can measure the SOC precisely is at the time you boot the car, that is, when there's no load on the battery. at any point after there is a significant load on the battery, any SoC measurement is just an estimate, presumably based on how much current has left and entered the battery (batteries).

furthermore since the battery is composed of many smaller batteries, and they don't necessarily monitor all of them, there's a source of error there.

it seems that even their estimate can cause "mysterious" jumps in the SoC and they want to shield the user from that confusion.

overall i think he was trying to convey the idea that there's no "true" SoC and any direct report of the SoC to the user will be just as much an estimate as the DTE currently is. of course reporting the SoC would remove the extra component of the recent driving history from the computation and perhaps be a little more clear to the driver.
 
TonyWilliams said:
One very important point made on the DTE / GuessOmeter was that an accurate SOC of the 96 measured cell pairs (192 total cells) could only be made at start up. This is where the LEAF measures the Open Circuit Voltage (OCV).

This cannot be accurately measured with a load, where only an estimate can be derived from voltage and amps. Also, just after charging and discharging, OCV cannot be measured because of chemical reaction in the battery.

This is good stuff. Thank you for sharing! Totally wishing I would have made plans to attend!
 
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