7 manufacturers support J1772 L3 DC Quick chrgr over CHAdeMO

scottf200 · Oct 12, 2011

From SanDust.
http://www.renewgridmag.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.7457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A couple articles are confirming this:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/12/german-automakers-plug-a-unified-standard-for-d-c-fast-charging/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The announcement is the most explicit indication yet from German automakers that they favor the design standard coordinated by SAE International, an organization of scientists and vehicle engineers, over one developed by the Tokyo Electric Power Company and in wide use in Asia, known as Chademo.
<snip>
SAE standards are voluntary, but Mr. Pokrzywa noted that many of the world’s automakers have worked with the organization on developing the combined protocol. He added that in the next few months SAE would begin testing the prototype combo charging system in production vehicles. If the testing is successfully concluded, a final standard could be published by the organization in the first quarter of 2012.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seven-auto-manufacturers-collaborate-on-harmonized-electric-vehicle-fast-charging-solution-131579563.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SOURCE Ford Motor Company

DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

* The system is a combined charging approach that integrates all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station
* The seven auto manufacturers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol. This approach will facilitate integration of the electric vehicle into future smart grid applications
* Agreeing upon a single, harmonized DC fast charging system, we believe will help infrastructure planning, reduce vehicle complexity and improve the ownership experience for electric vehicle customers
* Recognizing the importance of a single international approach for DC fast charging, Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have agreed on the combined charging system as an international standardized approach to charge electric vehicles (EV) in Europe and the United States.

The system is a combined charging approach integrating all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station. This allows electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen can share the same fast charging stations.

The seven auto manufacturers believe the development of a common charging approach is good for customers, the industry and charging infrastructure providers. Standardization will reduce build complexity for manufacturers, accelerate the installation of common systems internationally and most importantly, improve the ownership experience for EV drivers.

The endorsement of the combined charging system was based on reviews and analysis of existing charging strategies, the ergonomics of the connector and the preferences of customers in both the United States and Europe. The harmonized approach – across both continents and all manufacturers - will provide a framework for future infrastructure planning as well as a communication protocol to assist in the integration of electric vehicles into the smart grids.

The seven auto manufacturers also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol. This approach will also facilitate integration of the electric vehicle into future smart grid applications.

Automakers point to the success of Level 1 and Level 2 (for 220V charging in the U.S.) as an example of how standardization will increase the adoption of electric vehicles and increase customer satisfaction. The harmonized electric vehicle charging solution is backward compatible with the J1772 connector standard in the U.S. Backward compatibility also has been achieved in Europe where the system is based on the IEC 62196 Type 2. The approval of the J1772 standard has given electric vehicle owners the comfort of knowing they can charge at all Level 2 charging stations. Prior to standardization an EV owner had no way of knowing if the charge port they were pulling up to was compatible with their vehicle.

padamson1 · Oct 12, 2011

Interesting.

Kind of funny how only one of those 7 companies actually has an EV in production, and the Volt is really just a Plug-in which doesn't really benefit as much from L3. The 'piggy-back' of the L3 J1772 at least enables forward compatibility, that is I can plug my current L2 & L1 into a new L3 J1772, but I certainly can't plug one of the new L3 plugs into the LEAF J1772 (see http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-will-be-your-next-electric-car-charging-plug for a picture).

With the LEAF, CHAdeMO has at least a 2yr head start. Will the new J1772 L3 be the VHS or the Beta in this race? Beta did have a head start and lost, is CHAdeMO on the same path?

My guess is that there will be an adapter for no matter who loses....

Stoaty · Oct 12, 2011

Is this really support of a standard, or trying to slow Nissan down since they are in the lead?

scottf200 · Oct 12, 2011

I was just following latest EV news and zoomed in on the picture below (Spark_Cutaway) to create a post. I'm not sure that the Chevrolet BEV Spark will have this L3 connector ... I don't think it was officially stated.

From the thread about the Chevrolet BEV Spark:
J1772 combo (aka hybrid) L3 - preparation

From the big picture here:
http://media.gm.com/content/Pages/n...ner/par/download_0/file.res/Spark_Cutaway.jpg

...doesn't it look like there is a lower flap for the J1772 hybrid L3 vs J1772 L2 ?!?

J1772 hybrid L3:

GPowers · Oct 12, 2011

This kind of standards fighting can kill a product.

Remember HD-DVD vs Bul-ray. HD-DVD was first, had a better product that worked and allowed DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other. Sony through a butt load of money at content providers and the HD-DVD standard failed, but it took over a year. and the public stayed away for bot formats. And prices did nt drop until Sony won, with a product that did not work full for another 18 months.

TurboFroggy · Oct 12, 2011

NONE of these manufactures have any vehicles on the road with a fast charge port on them. By the time any of them even have one car on the road with "their" fast charge protocol, Nissan will have 50,000 Leafs with Chademo on the road. There will also be 700-1000 Chademo chargers in the US along with the 1000's that have already been installed in Japan.
I think this is just a plot by oil companies pressuring car companies and the SAE to delay fast charging standards.

walterbays · Oct 12, 2011

I'm standing by my prediction of SAE's next helpful standard to replace today's separate gasoline and diesel connectors with a single unit. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=122915#p122915

scottf200 · Oct 12, 2011

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1067269_7-makers-adopt-standardized-electric-car-charging-in-europe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not only will the charging connectors be identical for all electric vehicles, but all seven manufacturers will also use HomePlug GreenPHY as the shared communication protocol to help integrate the cars with smart grids in the future.

The move is fantastic news for EV fans and manufacturers alike. In a release, Ford says "We applied the [philosophy of innovative, convenient solutions] in working with other global automakers and governments to offer one common approach on charging electric vehicles".

Ford says the move will help speed infrastructure development, improve economic growth and making charging more convenient.

HomePlug GreenPHY
https://www.homeplug.org/tech/whitepapers/HomePlug_Green_PHY_whitepaper_100614.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

garygid · Oct 12, 2011

The Plug & Socket are not the most difficult part of the battle.

The WILDLY DIFFERENT Communication Protocol is the MUCH BIGGER problem.

tps · Oct 13, 2011

garygid said:
The Plug & Socket are not the most difficult part of the battle.

The WILDLY DIFFERENT Communication Protocol is the MUCH BIGGER problem.

And how will this "smart grid friendly" protocol help quick charging? It will not, because the point of quick charging is quickness, not grid-friendliness. If a quick-charge is throttled back significantly to "help the grid", except in an emergency, it will defeat the purpose of quick charging.

L2 is where "smart grid friendliness" is needed. The current L2 pilot theoretically can tell the charger to throttle back the charge rate in response as part of the a smart grid aware EVSE, however iwhen it comes to V2G and other smart grid friendly things, no way can the pilot do the amount of communications necessary. CAN buss (as is used in CHAdeMO) would probably be the ideal solution for an EVSE, since it is well developed and used in the automotive industry. My guess is that they are planning to pull a fast one and piggyback the new communications protocol onto L2, the same way they piggybacked the DC pins onto the existing J1772 connector.

Smart grid communications standards are still in a very embrionic state while CAN is fairly well developed. IMHO there is no technical reason not to use CAN; this "agreement" on a vaporware standard is GM's "move" in the chess game to block Nissan's expansion of CHAdeMO. They are despirate, as Nissan has a BIG lead, both in producing CHAdeMO vehicles, and deploying a WORLDWIDE quick charge network. The way they spin the word "harmonized" makes it sound as if CHAdoMO is not a world standard, while in fact it is deployed in many countries TODAY.

This is rhetoric, pure and simple, put out by a coaltion who is still a ways from producing any cars which can use a quick charger, to block the efforts of manufacturers such as Nissan and Mitsubishi, who are doing it TODAY!

scottf200 · Oct 13, 2011

SAE's J1772 'combo connector' for ac and dc charging advances with IEEE's help

12-Aug-2011 : http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/10128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

amtoro · Oct 13, 2011

Obviously this is far from finalized, but by the look of it, as the J1772 port in the car is raised from the flat surface behind it, there could be a possibility that this connector still fits on today's J1772 ports just leaving the DC part of it in the air altogether.

Maybe the L3 charging stations will have both options, and the SAE can be used for L2 or L3 depending on the car while CHAdeMO will of course, be L3 only.

The problem will be that if Ford and GM start lobbying (and that is something I have a big issue with), they will pressure their paid legislators to block the installation of CHAdeMO in the country...

Maybe Nissan will use the SAE port in the future for the US and Europe, and an adapter (a box with SAE port and a CHAdeMO pigtail) for the current owners.

I think we should contact Nissan about this; the whole rumor about a new plug will hurt sales until Nissan comes out to ease the fears of future buyers thinking they will be left with an useless L3 port on their cars.

tps · Oct 13, 2011

It is NOT a coincidence that this announcement comes just ay the point where public quick charger installation is starting in earnest in the US. They have no product and realize that if they don't make noise at critical times they've as much as thrown in the towel.

I suspect the proposed communications protocol wil be as much, if not more, of a Frankenstein monster as the physical plug for much the same reasons. It's obvious to me that using Homeplug GREEN/PHY is just an excuse to tack it onto the L2 protocol. The current L2 would then become "legacy L2".

Nissan's shot across the SAE bow was to make CHAdeMO standard on 2012 SL, thus promoting an increase in CHAdeMO equipped vehicles. This is SAE's return shot. It's a shame that consumers have to be caught in the crossfire, but that's the corporate world...

DaveinOlyWA · Oct 13, 2011

worldwide there are 30,000 iMEVs and Leafs and production numbers from both companies ramping up. so by the end of 2012 there will about 100,000 on the road using this technology.

add to that, Tesla who just announced they will have their own proprietary system and now we have a new one. ok, sure. after all this, it is readily apparent to me that the great majority of auto manufacturers hate the EV concept and are doing nothing much more than paying lip service. they have no product, so they are even on my radar. one of these days, they might realize we are a viable market segment and change their ways.

edatoakrun · Oct 13, 2011

Have any of these 7 manufactures announced definite plans to deliver BEVs on a large scale, and begun building or converting factories to manufacture them?

As far as I know, they each only have announced plans to convert a few thousand ICEVs to BEVs (and sell them at a fraction of their production cost).

So, IF Nissan and Mitsu stick with CHAdeMO, in two years there probably will be about 30,000 CHAdeMO equipped cars rolling off assembly lines each month worldwide, and a (maybe?) a few thousand with SAE .

Which standard would you buy for your DC Charge station?

DaveinOlyWA · Oct 13, 2011

this announcement is nothing more than other manufacturers trying to derail what little momentum EVs currently have. at least, i feel that there is not much going except in my little hamlet of the world along with a dozen others.

but apparently, we are creating enough noise to generate some concern. this makes me happy. but at the same time, it makes me sad because this only emphasizes how many EV enemies still exist out there.

here are companies that dont have a car, have a standard, etc. its not like they made the decision because it would cost them a lot of money to retool... they are doing it to cause an uncertainty amongst the current new car customer base.

what they are trying to do is push fence sitters into the diesel/gas yard. iow, its simply FUD

TRONZ · Oct 13, 2011

Ya know we already went over this in other threads (see WalterBays comment). It's pretty simple. CHAdeMo will be here first. The first units are already UL approved and are getting in the ground with cars to use them. When the SAE standard gets UL approval someday AND SAE QC cars are on the road in number, SAE units will go in the ground right next to the CHAdeMO units. It is far harder for gas stations to store and dispense RUG, MUG, PUG and Diesel and they do it everywhere every day. SAE and CHAd will coexist for a time until one group of manufacturers wins by sheer number of QC vehicles on the road. I know which group I'm betting on.

DaveinOlyWA · Oct 13, 2011

TRONZ said:
Ya know we already went over this in other threads (see WalterBays comment). It's pretty simple. CHAdeMo will be here first...

+1

diesel did not push out gas, ethanol or anything else. multiple "sucessful" standards means huge widespread adoption of the technology.

either way, if CHAdeMo were to fail, it will take years. it already is entrenched in ummm....90+ of the current EV market and that percentage is growing fast.

scottf200 · Oct 13, 2011

DaveinOlyWA said:
worldwide there are 30,000 iMEVs and Leafs and production numbers from both companies ramping up. so by the end of 2012 there will about 100,000 on the road using this technology.

You say "using this technology" but shouldn't that read "have the capability to use this technology". That is to say what percentage of these vehicles are actually using it or have even used it once. If they bought iMEV or the LEAF then it would seem the vast majority of the time the battery range is good for them already. I understand if they have a second ICE car they use for longer ranges that a L3 charger along their route of that example may allow them to use the iMEV/LEAF but what are those percentages of cases that a L3 would be located in a useful waypoint.

It would seem that a very higher percentage (99.x %) are using L2 charging just fine. That would indicate that the new J1772 L3 is not really going to hurt current users using L2.

I'm not trying to word-smith here but only trying to clarify the real impact.

scottf200 · Oct 13, 2011

TurboFroggy said:
NONE of these manufactures have any vehicles on the road with a fast charge port on them.

But they have goals:
http://www.cleantechblog.com/2011/10/chevrolet-spark-ev-with-a123-nanophosphate-lithium-ion-batteries.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ford may be the first carmaker to sell 100,000 cars annually that includes lithium batteries. When I lasted interviewed Nancy Gioia, Director Ford Global Electrification, she said that Ford has a 2020 goal of 10 to 25 percent of its vehicle sales including lithium batteries. Her best guess is that 70% would be hybrids, 20 to 25% plug-in hybrids, and 5 to 10% battery-electric.

7 manufacturers support J1772 L3 DC Quick chrgr over CHAdeMO

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