Does anyone know full charge kWh amount?

One other thing to think about - AC kWh into the charger port is greater than the DC kWh which will eventually go into the drive motor. Far a fast-charging Tesla, the loss is about 20%. The Mini EV seemed to have losses of 15-20% as well. I imagine the losses are reduced at slower charge rates.

a lot of interesting conjecture of the "stated" range, "expected" range and "feel good??" range.

i will have to say that if you can not live with it getting less than 80 miles, then dont buy it. why Nissan said 100 miles is obvious to me. why do we sell items at $9.95? because it sounds a lot cheaper than $10.

if they advertised the range at 90 miles, who would still buy it? is 10 miles really that much difference? no of course not. but the psychological difference between 100 and 90 anything is huge.

i think we can say that the car will probably get around 4 miles per kwh. maybe a bit more under good conditions, say up to 4½. and in bad conditions, maybe 3½. so if a 24 kwh pack is used (lithium should be able to use 90 % of its capacity) means around 21.6 kwh usable. using the figures above, i say that means as much as 97.2 miles but could also be as little as 75.6.

i am prepared to live with that. i hope the rest of you are

DaveinOlyWA said:

a lot of interesting conjecture of the "stated" range, "expected" range and "feel good??" range.

i will have to say that if you can not live with it getting less than 80 miles, then dont buy it. why Nissan said 100 miles is obvious to me. why do we sell items at $9.95? because it sounds a lot cheaper than $10.

if they advertised the range at 90 miles, who would still buy it? is 10 miles really that much difference? no of course not. but the psychological difference between 100 and 90 anything is huge.

i think we can say that the car will probably get around 4 miles per kwh. maybe a bit more under good conditions, say up to 4½. and in bad conditions, maybe 3½. so if a 24 kwh pack is used (lithium should be able to use 90 % of its capacity) means around 21.6 kwh usable. using the figures above, i say that means as much as 97.2 miles but could also be as little as 75.6.

i am prepared to live with that. i hope the rest of you are

Click to expand...

Dave, I'm 100% with you until you calculate pack capacity. We've already determined that the 24kWh is the consumer capacity, not 'ultimate' capacity. Nissan via Mr. Perry has also communicated that the consumer will have access to pack capacity between 90% and 10%. At about 250Wh/mile and 24kWh usable...

In addition, there's very strong evidence that we can expect that 100 mile LA4 range after the pack has degraded to 80% capacity.

Either of those suggests that the pack is larger than 24kWh - and both forces the pack to be larger still.

Realistic range is important - but I don't think we'll need to self-censor quite as much.

Andy

Basically seconding what AndyH just said, but perhaps shading it a bit, what I was told at the 'Tour of California' booth a week ago was "between 23 and 24 kWh". Note that this is more recent than the cross-country tour Andy mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=321&start=16 so they may be backpedaling a bit. A fuzzy number like that also sounds clearly like a consumer capacity, not something based on a cell count. I tried to push their "battery expert" on that, but he wouldn't give me a straight answer, though he strongly implied that at least 23kWh would be usable.

thru-out all Nissan's dialog; range anxiety was one of the biggest concerns when designing the Leaf but they emphasized that it was not being addressed by a larger pack, but by the Nav unit that would constantly tell you where you could go and where u can recharge. so they have been diligent in addressing the concern.

a larger pack than is currently expected would be wonderful. as for me, i think that 75 miles in less than ideal conditions would be good for me. living in the EV highway project area basically means my 75 miles is doubled because i will have quick charge ability.

with additional battery development, i think that within 3 years which would be way before most would see any range degradation, i think larger, extended range pack options or at least something that would get us 400 miles between charges will come up

DaveinOlyWA said:

thru-out all Nissan's dialog; range anxiety was one of the biggest concerns when designing the Leaf but they emphasized that it was not being addressed by a larger pack, but by the Nav unit that would constantly tell you where you could go and where u can recharge. so they have been diligent in addressing the concern.

a larger pack than is currently expected would be wonderful. as for me, i think that 75 miles in less than ideal conditions would be good for me. living in the EV highway project area basically means my 75 miles is doubled because i will have quick charge ability.

with additional battery development, i think that within 3 years which would be way before most would see any range degradation, i think larger, extended range pack options or at least something that would get us 400 miles between charges will come up

Click to expand...

The issue is more of weight and aerodynamics. if we focus on higher density storage and not reducing the weight of the vehicles then they are going to become like SUVs with large 70kwh packs which is not efficient. The Leaf is rumored to weigh as much as 3400 lbs, that is not so great when you subtract the pack weight. A Toyota Yaris 4-door sedan has a curb weight of about 2300 LBS! The Scion XB large boxy vehicle is the same, this is why it was chosen by ACP to be converted. Removing the Leaf pack and making it an ICE would put it at about 3300 lbs or so with a reasonable motor, not so good in the weight category. Weight is a big issue in an EV and more needs to be done here while focusing on better battery capacity, otherwise it only translates to more energy use for range. This applies to all vehicles of course. I took a seat out of a MINI once and was shocked at the weight, no wonder the car weighs 400 lbs more than a Yaris and is smaller.

If the LEAF's large battery pack's (heavy) metal "box" is removable, and not part of the "frame", that would account for some of the "extra" weight (beyond the cells themselves, and the 48 metal modules).

I wonder how much weight one module "shell" adds to the 4 cells inside?

garygid said:

If the LEAF's large battery pack's (heavy) metal "box" is removable, and not part of the "frame", that would account for some of the "extra" weight (beyond the cells themselves, and the 48 metal modules).

I wonder how much weight one module "shell" adds to the 4 cells inside?

Click to expand...

i believe that Nissan pack is supposed to be swappable with BP's business plans

So, now that Mark has given Chelsea all the answers, we're left with a bit of a riddle, aren't we?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=777&start=4

9) Usable pack is widely reported as 24kWh, but what is the actual size?

Well, it seems that the actual size is 24kWh, and that they can go "pretty much right down to zero" if needed.

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I'm no expert on batteries, but it sounds like magic to me that we could use 96+% of the total battery capacity day after day for years and expect it to keep on going. Of course, they have told us we'll get a warning light at about 83% used, so maybe we're supposed to stop driving at that point if we value the car.

And, since they obviously value their own car, maybe that 100 miles (+/- 40 miles) is really based on using only 20kWh. Thoughts, anyone?

planet4ever said:

And, since they obviously value their own car, maybe that 100 miles (+/- 40 miles) is really based on using only 20kWh. Thoughts, anyone?

Click to expand...

I still think the pack is bigger than 24kwH by a small margin. Maybe as little as 10% or 15%, but I'll be it's there and THEY don't want us to know about it! :lol:

mwalsh said:

planet4ever said:

And, since they obviously value their own car, maybe that 100 miles (+/- 40 miles) is really based on using only 20kWh. Thoughts, anyone?

Click to expand...

I still think the pack is bigger than 24kwH by a small margin. Maybe as little as 10% or 15%, but I'll be it's there and THEY don't want us to know about it! :lol:

Click to expand...

You really have to take these "usable" vs "total" figures with a large grain of salt. The usable capacity and lifespan (with life remaining) are the only things that matter, and Nissan has provided those figures.

"Total capacity" is a crock of B$ which is only useful for the marketing department and misleading consumers.

We don't know the upper and lower voltage limits set by the BMS on the Leaf. I suspect someday we will, but I believe these values have been set appropriately by Nissan.

It's very likely that the battery in the Leaf could hold 30kWh or more if charged and depleted beyond the allowed limits, but needless to say it wouldn't last very long. This is just the nature of Li-Ion.

battery capacity is all speculation at this point. Nissan has posted range figures for a variety of driving scenarios. granted, they are all a bit vague, but if looking at the higher numbers, we can probably assume they represent relatively constant driving at the average speed which lends to getting the best performance and it does not appear to me that we have more than say 22-23 KWH to use.

now we have to assume that limp mode will happen when we get to the last 5%. in limp mode we are looking at probably 4-7 miles??

another thing to look at is the contribution of a completely unknown value of regen. that can play a large part in the range figures even on flat surfaces and i think that is the reason why we are seeing 130 miles in low speed driving. once again, this 130 miles could easily become 60 miles if one does not understand the concept of efficient driving, anticipating speed, traffic controls, etc.

In the Web video of the display panel operation that was posted today. The display showed the average driving range as " 27.3 miles/kWh ". But on the same screen, it also showed the Instant range as varying from 0 to 8 miles/kWh.

mwalsh said:

planet4ever said:

And, since they obviously value their own car, maybe that 100 miles (+/- 40 miles) is really based on using only 20kWh. Thoughts, anyone?

Click to expand...

I still think the pack is bigger than 24kwH by a small margin. Maybe as little as 10% or 15%, but I'll be it's there and THEY don't want us to know about it! :lol:

Click to expand...

At Plug-in 2010 today I stationed myself at the Leaf battery display and listened for a while as the Nissan rep manning that display answered a number of questions without a misstep that I could detect. I finally got my chance and, pointing at the board that said "24kWh total capacity", I asked, "Does that really mean total capacity, or total usable capacity?" He grinned, and replied, "The total usable capacity is roughly 24kWh. The total capacity of the pack is confidential."

planet4ever said:

"The total usable capacity is roughly 24kWh. The total capacity of the pack is confidential."

Click to expand...

AH, HA!

planet4ever said:

"The total usable capacity is roughly 24kWh. The total capacity of the pack is confidential."

Click to expand...

Assuming 80% SOC, that makes it about 30 kwh ...

Sweet...great "get"...that will help with battery longevity...


Gavin

planet4ever said:

At Plug-in 2010 today I stationed myself at the Leaf battery display and listened for a while as the Nissan rep manning that display answered a number of questions without a misstep that I could detect. I finally got my chance and, pointing at the board that said "24kWh total capacity", I asked, "Does that really mean total capacity, or total usable capacity?" He grinned, and replied, "The total usable capacity is roughly 24kWh. The total capacity of the pack is confidential."

Click to expand...

THANK YOU planet4ever! It's one thing to analyze from the outside, but validation is where the rubber meets the road - you've done well!


Source

That "roughly 24kWh" capacity is the small 'region used by the unit' area. The 3.0 and 4.2 range is this example is more likely going to be 3.0V to 4.1V in the car - and that corresponds to about the 90% and 10% ultimate state of charge.

Nothing in the image covers capacity or capacity loss over time - that's easily covered by using cells with more capacity.

It was difficult to believe that Nissan would have messed-up pack sizing. With this info and the warranty indicator I feel Very Good Indeed about the battery!

Thanks again!

AndyH said:

So...if the car will still get 100 miles of LA4-like driving after 10 years, and if there's an ECO mode good for another 15-20% range...does that mean we might get 140 miles range when the pack's new even before opening the hypermiling bag-o-tricks?

Click to expand...

And we're seeing 138 miles for a real-world (but slow driving) max range - pretty good guestimate.

The Answer to how the Nissan Leaf Battery is structured is on this page ...

http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High energy module (for BEV)
General specifications
Number of cells 4
Construction 2 parallel 2 series

High energy cell (for Battery Electric Vehicle)
Rated capacity (0.3C) 33.1 Ah Average voltage 3.8 V

So at 2P 2S Cells each module is 7.6 Volts @ 66.2 A/hr

48 Modules * 7.6 Volts = 364.8 Volts Pack Voltage * 66.2 A/hr = 24,149.76 W/Hr

Nominal Total Pack Capacity is 24kW/hr * 80 % = 19.3 kW/hr at 80 % charge

Case rests