Which factors have the biggest impact on battery life?

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dud

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2015
Messages
15
All of these factors have a direct impact on the life of a rechargeable battery:

1) Age
2) Number of recharges
3) Types of recharges (fast vice slow)
4) Ambient temperature of the environment in which the battery operates
5) ?


My question relates to the buying of a used Leaf and how much one should focus on the remaining life of the battery. If I find a used 2012 Leaf with 5K miles on it one could assume that it has been through a (relatively) few recharge cycles in it's life ... but what impact will the age of the battery (3+ years) have on it's remaining life? I ask because I just passed on a 2012 with 5K miles because, while it had very few miles it had a battery that is almost 4 years old. In this case could one correctly assume that one would get at least 8 bars up until 60K miles? The bottom line is that if I drive only 5K miles per year then I could assume that the car (and original battery) have about 11 years of life left ... before it hits 8 bars.

Please demystify for me ...


Thank you.
 
yes, Heat and lifespan but also leaving the battery fully charged and fully charged in the Heat is the worst. Mostly it is to do with heat. If you DC charge it and it's very hot, that isn't good, but studies have found that DC charging isn't much of a difference. I think, and this is my own thought, that hammering on the GO pedal also pumps up the AMPS and heat which will hurt the life of the battery too.
 
Unless you absolutely need every mile of range your best bet is to find a low millage car with a degraded battery and enough warrantee time on it to qualify for a battery replacement. Get leaf spy and test them out to see how close they are to a new battery.

If you need every mile you're probably better off waiting for a 2016 with the 30kWh pack as it will probably never run below the capacity of a 2015 pack.

I know some people don't like to dispose of things so I can sympathize with that but we may be at a point where the best thing to do financially is buy the cheapest car you can find, hope to get a battery warrantee replacement and if you don't buy a cheap used 2016 in a few years. I imagine the depreciation will be the same or steeper than what we see now once there are other 200 mile BEVs out.

As for my car I've got lots of millage (31K miles in 16 months), 105 QC and 1100 L1/L2 charges and I've still got 99% from leaf spy. The things I have going for me is that it hardly ever sits, driven 55 or 90 miles most days, most charging is done at night with the occasional summer day charge at L1 to 100% but then it was usually driven within a half hour of hitting 100%, I got it pretty much right off the delivery truck from the plant and it's not that hot up here.
 
dud said:
All of these factors have a direct impact on the life of a rechargeable battery:

1) Age
2) Number of recharges
3) Types of recharges (fast vice slow)
4) Ambient temperature of the environment in which the battery operates
5) ?


My question relates to the buying of a used Leaf and how much one should focus on the remaining life of the battery. If I find a used 2012 Leaf with 5K miles on it one could assume that it has been through a (relatively) few recharge cycles in it's life ... but what impact will the age of the battery (3+ years) have on it's remaining life? I ask because I just passed on a 2012 with 5K miles because, while it had very few miles it had a battery that is almost 4 years old. In this case could one correctly assume that one would get at least 8 bars up until 60K miles? The bottom line is that if I drive only 5K miles per year then I could assume that the car (and original battery) have about 11 years of life left ... before it hits 8 bars.

Please demystify for me ...


Thank you.

reorder those

1 Heat (ambient temp)
2 Heat (driving or charging)
3 Heat - because Nissan uses passive cooling the heat will remain for 10-20 hours after being generated or absorbed
4 Age
5 Heat - just making sure you saw this
6 any thing else

seriously you don't need to worry about speed of charging, number of charge cycles, or miles driven. Just pay attention to heat and age.
 
1 Heat
2 Sitting at high SOC
3 Discharging to low SOC

Charge rates are irrelevant unless there is heat. Charging to 100% is not a big deal.
 
Based upon your responses I guess that battery life of a Leaf battery in Central Florida might well be reduced?

It hit 90 here today ...

:(
 
dhanson865 said:
reorder those

1 Heat (ambient temp)
2 Heat (driving or charging)
3 Heat - because Nissan uses passive cooling the heat will remain for 10-20 hours after being generated or absorbed
4 Age
5 Heat - just making sure you saw this
6 any thing else

seriously you don't need to worry about speed of charging, number of charge cycles, or miles driven. Just pay attention to heat and age.
1000+ :lol: While it's a serious topic, this gave me a good laugh today. Thanks.

Another thing: Use it or lose it! High mileage drivers will get better value out of any EV. While us low mileage (<8000 mi/yy) drivers may be able to enjoy the EV for a longer number of years, the total miles driven will be lower and the cost per mile will be higher. I've got less than 30,000 miles on my 2011 Leaf vs. nearly 150,000 mi for TaylorSFGuy. He's down to 8 bars, while I still have 10. He must make significant changes to continue driving his 2011 Leaf (in fact he purchased a 2nd, newer one and uses that one in the winter). In the end (say in another 10 years), both vehicles will be relegated to short trips (grocery getter), will require an expensive battery replacement, or will be scrapped. He will have driven close to 200,000 miles while I will have maybe 100,000.
 
My first post :D

Anyway,

battery is a chemical sandwich. Degradation happens because battery is not 100% stable and some processes are not reversible.

To stop degradation chemical processes must stop happening. At absolute zero degradation stops. But there is a critical
temperature where chemistry inside Li-ion cells will freeze. Let's assume that lowest healthy temperature is 1 temperature bar.
Chemistry inside cells is not frozen. Chemical processes happen but are very slow. This is why at some point charging speed
is limited and at another even acceleration is limited. This all boils down to voltage at every cell terminals: if chemistry is cold
adding charge results in voltage to rise to maximum (4.13V for Leaf) very rapidly because the "surface" of chemistry is saturated
with fresh juice but getting deeper takes a lot of time. Same with acceleration: pushing go pedal will result the whole pack to
suck juice at maximum speed. Surfaces of every cell are stressed with discharge. Voltage drops. To get the same power (80kW)
more amps must be pushed. But there is a limit. This is why acceleration will be limited at some point. This heavy pushing of
juice has some stress on the cells. Some of that pushing turns into defects. Eventually we call it degradation.
It is OK to charge/discharge at low temperatures but the rate of should be limited (unfortunately discharge is not).
At moderate temperatures chemical processes happen faster. Charging and discharging can happen faster as juice inside every
cell can move faster. Heavy discharging/charging is more healthy for the cell at appropriate temperatures because the whole cell
share the load more or less evenly. Unfortunately at moderate temperatures processes that are not needed also happen.
With higher and higher temperatures charging and discharging can happen faster and faster but vehicle can't use that
power anyway. Unfortunately unwanted processes happen more rapidly at that state without any advantages.

To sum up TEMPERATURE: the lower the temperature the slower the degradation. The lower the temperature the less capable
the battery is.


Defects also happen when juice is pumped in or out of the cell. This is hard to avoid. But what can be avoided are
the extremes: very full and very empty. Ideally cycles near 50% of charge are very easy to chemistry: there is a
good tendency for juice to complete the trip without defects to either side: cathode and anode (charging or discharging).
Also what can be avoided is pushing hard near the limits: rapid charging when very full (luckily Leaf has excellent
control over it as it never ever let any cell exceed maximum defined voltage) and rapid discharging while nearly empty.
Unfortunately Leaf has very bad control over that. Many users might have noticed that full power is available up
to the point when Leaf is almost dead. Then the Turtle appears. Power is heavily limited to very safe levels. I have analyzed
the situation and I can tell that when there is less than 10% of charge any heavy acceleration heavily pushes the whole
pack. Voltage is very unstable (the surfaces of cells are stressed). Some cells show more strength and some are weaker.
As I don't have a degree in chemistry I can not tell for sure is that harmful or not but I strongly suggest not to push Leaf
when low battery warning has appeared. For example Tesla's start to limit discharge rate much sooner than Leaf.

To sum up STATE OF CHARGE: using state of charge between 80% and 30% has acceptable effects on degradation.
The closer to extremes multiplied with temperature the faster defects occur. It means that the worst thing to do is
to fully deplete the battery and keep it hot. The second worst thing is to fully charge the battery and keep it hot.

The speed of charging would be noticeable harmful if the voltage for any cell would get higher than magical 4.13V.
But it doesn't. So if we subtract degradation that happens with temperature and subtract degradation that happens
with maximum charge state 4.13V at recommended temperatures (which is not much really) there is hardly any more
defects that happen when rapid charging. Unfortunately really fast charging (30kW-50kW) only happens when cell is
not slow (not cold). This means ideal temperature or hotter. If it is ideal temperature it will soon be above that.
If it is above ideal temperature it will soon be way above ideal temperature. And this is why eventually heavy use of
Leaf's battery (taxi driving for example) with no way to cool chemistry faster will result in more degradation than on average.
It is true that charging up to 80% at moderate speed (up to 6,6kW for Leafs) does indeed have slightly less degradation
than rapid charging up to 80%. This is because the safe upper limit 4.13V is not reached even while charging (up to 1 hour).


The day when battery was manufactured does not have any direct relations with life left. At ideal storing conditions
battery that is a decade old can be in better shape than a battery that has been used for one summer.
As we mostly don't keep our vehicles is freezers degradation does happen. So the philosophy is simple:
use it but don't abuse it. Keeping car below 25C / 80F (24h average) and at 80% charge is reasonable for
excellent lifetime.

I tried to explain it as simply as possible. Also my native language is not English. This is why my style is weird :mrgreen:
 
Thank you, arnis, for the excellent summary of internal battery effects. This knowledge can be found floating around the forum in bits and pieces. But you've put it all together in one post.

I hope Nissan will give us the options to better control our battery usage for optimum life. As it stands, it is a tediously manual process to keep a 2016 Leaf less than 80% charged, below 80F, with limited power draw below 30%. Part of me wishes there was a "battery life mode" button one could press in which the car would apply all of the appropriate rules. Then you could drive in that mode for 95% of the time, only exiting it for special occasions when you need more range/acceleration/etc. I'll keep dreaming.
 
I think they tried to KISS: "keep it simple and stupid".
Unfortunately it is so stupid that it makes things worse.

They noticed it and decided to make eNV200 a little bit better by adding
a cooling system inside the pack so heat dissipates a little bit more faster.
It is very helpful, especially with rapid charging being popular with van.

If I was "chief engineer" at Nissan and not allowed to waste a lot of money I would definitely make Leaf better just by:
a) 60% 70% 80% 90% 100% charge option (firmware, battery health).
b) battery heater preheats battery if vehicle preheating with plug (firmware, range+battery health)
c) fix unrealistic range calculator (firmware, user comfort)
d) power/regen/speed limitations with hot , power limitation with cold battery (firmware, battery health)
e) switch off AC/heatpump outside fan when driving fast (firmware, range)
f) ECO mode optimization (heater has practically no limitations with ECO mode active, firmware, range)
g) PTC off mode for 2013+ Leafs (holding HEAT button will disable PTC, only heatpump heat, firmware, range)
h) DEFROST button bug - it activates AC even if fresh-air flap open and freezing outside (firmware, comfort)

The only thing that Nissan did get mostly right with battery is rapid charging at ChaDeMo. I would add another function to
i) firmware: switch on outside fan if battery above healthy. I'm not sure but I believe air does pass below/above battery case.

For those who want to do d) "manually":
With 0-2 segments: ECO only. Massive range reduction with acceleration above 20kW

With 9-10 segments: half power ~40kW (ECO), 15kW regen (D mode, not B), obey speed limit, do not discharge to very low.
With 11 segments: do not charge, avoid regen, 30kW power, up to 55mph/90km/h, do not AC.
With 12 segments: do not drive, keep charge between 1/3 and 2/3.

Things in bold do impact battery life.
 
arnis said:
I think they tried to KISS: "keep it simple and stupid".
Unfortunately it is so stupid that it makes things worse.

They noticed it and decided to make eNV200 a little bit better by adding
a cooling system inside the pack so heat dissipates a little bit more faster.
It is very helpful, especially with rapid charging being popular with van.

If I was "chief engineer" at Nissan and not allowed to waste a lot of money I would definitely make Leaf better just by:
a) 60% 70% 80% 90% 100% charge option (firmware, battery health).
b) battery heater preheats battery if vehicle preheating with plug (firmware, range+battery health)
c) fix unrealistic range calculator (firmware, user comfort)
d) power/regen/speed limitations with hot , power limitation with cold battery (firmware, battery health)
e) switch off AC/heatpump outside fan when driving fast (firmware, range)
f) ECO mode optimization (heater has practically no limitations with ECO mode active, firmware, range)
g) PTC off mode for 2013+ Leafs (holding HEAT button will disable PTC, only heatpump heat, firmware, range)
h) DEFROST button bug - it activates AC even if fresh-air flap open and freezing outside (firmware, comfort)

The only thing that Nissan did get mostly right with battery is rapid charging at ChaDeMo. I would add another function to
i) firmware: switch on outside fan if battery above healthy. I'm not sure but I believe air does pass below/above battery case.

For those who want to do d) "manually":
With 0-2 segments: ECO only. Massive range reduction with acceleration above 20kW

With 9-10 segments: half power ~40kW (ECO), 15kW regen (D mode, not B), obey speed limit, do not discharge to very low.
With 11 segments: do not charge, avoid regen, 30kW power, up to 55mph/90km/h, do not AC.
With 12 segments: do not drive, keep charge between 1/3 and 2/3.

Things in bold do impact battery life.

a. no reason for the 100% option because 100% is really 92-95% most of the time. Choosing 90% vs what you get at 100% is almost no change. Still I'd love to have the 60, 70, 80 options. I don't need both 90 and 100, just call it one or the other and I'm fine with that.

b. preheat how high, say to 50F if below 50F? Currently it only preheats to 20F. I'd be OK with raising it to preheat a little more but I wouldn't want it to go above 50F because degradation at higher temps and it takes so long to get rid of heat in the pack I'd rather have some buffer below ideal temp for the possibility it will heat up later that day.

g. give me PTC off mode for all leafs, some of us want to use that even without a heat pump.
 
dhanson865 said:
a. no reason for the 100% option because 100% is really 92-95% most of the time.
Done right, you'd properly scale it so that "100%" is whatever the max safe charging level is, 50% would be exactly halfway from turtle and the other steps would be actual 10% differences in energy.

92-95% or whatever the LBC calls it doesn't matter - for the end user 100% should be the max allowable charge and 80% should give you 80% of actual allowable charge.
 
drees said:
dhanson865 said:
a. no reason for the 100% option because 100% is really 92-95% most of the time.
Done right, you'd properly scale it so that "100%" is whatever the max safe charging level is, 50% would be exactly halfway from turtle and the other steps would be actual 10% differences in energy.

92-95% or whatever the LBC calls it doesn't matter - for the end user 100% should be the max allowable charge and 80% should give you 80% of actual allowable charge.

which is fine if you don't offer a 90% option

You described

80% is 80%
100% is whatever

the problem is if you bother to do

80% is 80%
90% is 90%
100% is 93%

It just isn't useful because the "100%" and 90% options are often only 3% apart.

Do any percentage you want from 50 to 80% and there is no confusion but if you offer a 90% and a 100% option we'll have thread after thread about how someone charged to 100% and only gained a couple of miles range vs 90%.

We still see that now but not as much because there isn't a 90% charge option.

If you are suggesting they should redo the SOC% scale to have a 90% option that is truly 10% below the "100%" option I'd say that will never happen, too much work and confusion for very little gain.
 
dhanson865 said:
It just isn't useful because the "100%" and 90% options are often only 3% apart.
You miss my point.

Table showing actual SOC on left and user-displayed SOC on right - 10% difference in user-displayed SOC would be only 9% in actual SOC.

Code:
95% - 100%
86% -  90%
77% -  80%
68% -  70%
59% -  60%
50% -  50%
41% -  40%
32% -  30%
23% -  20%
14% -  10%
 5% -   0%
 
drees said:
dhanson865 said:
It just isn't useful because the "100%" and 90% options are often only 3% apart.
You miss my point.

Table showing actual SOC on left and user-displayed SOC on right - 10% difference in user-displayed SOC would be only 9% in actual SOC.

Code:
95% - 100%
86% -  90%
77% -  80%
68% -  70%
59% -  60%
50% -  50%
41% -  40%
32% -  30%
23% -  20%
14% -  10%
 5% -   0%

This is what EVs need to start showing us. When I'm driving the car, I don't care whether the maximum allowable SoC is 93%, 95%, or something else. What I care about is that it's 100% of what I can charge to. In the same vein, I don't care if turtle happens at 5%, 3%, 10% or whatever. All I care is that I cannot drive any more. So show me a percentage SoC relative to what is accessible to the user. It's really the only thing that makes sense to display on the dash.
 
drees said:
dhanson865 said:
It just isn't useful because the "100%" and 90% options are often only 3% apart.
You miss my point.

Table showing actual SOC on left and user-displayed SOC on right - 10% difference in user-displayed SOC would be only 9% in actual SOC.

Code:
95% - 100%
86% -  90%
77% -  80%
68% -  70%
59% -  60%
50% -  50%
41% -  40%
32% -  30%
23% -  20%
14% -  10%
 5% -   0%

nope, didn't miss your point, see the quote at the bottom of my reply

If you are suggesting they should redo the SOC% scale to have a 90% option that is truly 10% below the "100%" option I'd say that will never happen, too much work and confusion for very little gain.

having the table does help the discussion though so thanks for posting it.

I agree that would have some use and I'd like to see it as an option in the MFD settings screens to change the SOC scale. To have a table like this in the owners manual and a SOC% on the dash that matches the linear option you suggest. Leafspy could then show the internal numbers and neither new option would show the distorted curve at the top or bottom of the scale.

I just don't think it'll happen for existing cars and I don't have any hope of them making that change to the 2016 or 2017 cars.

But the more I think about it the more I agree it would be an improvement.
 
dhanson865 said:
a. no reason for the 100% option because 100% is really 92-95% most of the time. Choosing 90% vs what you get at 100% is almost no change. Still I'd love to have the 60, 70, 80 options. I don't need both 90 and 100, just call it one or the other and I'm fine with that.

b. preheat how high, say to 50F if below 50F? Currently it only preheats to 20F. I'd be OK with raising it to preheat a little more but I wouldn't want it to go above 50F because degradation at higher temps and it takes so long to get rid of heat in the pack I'd rather have some buffer below ideal temp for the possibility it will heat up later that day.


Like others said, 90% and 100% of the accessible capacity. Also I want 90% because it is more efficient on the grid. I hope many know that getting that last 0,5kWh of juice takes a lot of time. And at below 4 temperature bars it is very very long process. But charging has parasitic load that is just wasted (relays, management modules, pump). 0,5kW from grid almost constantly and about the same into the battery. But it can take 1-3 hours. So there's a difference between 90% and 100%. Noticeable difference.
Also 90% will be very appreciated for those who lost capacity after years of use. I consumed 50-70% for my regular trips when Leaf was new. Now I consume 55-75%. When I reach the end of warranty I will use about 60-80% of range so 100% charge will be inevitable. I would prefer 90% charge for another few years instead of 4,13V limit.

Preheating battery up to 5C (40F). Above that temperature charging/discharging has negligible stress difference on chemistry.
Also I noticed that rapid charging is reasonable at 5C or above.
Preheating battery should also depend on outside temperature (those who keep vehicle indoors already have warm battery usually).
If outdoor temperature is above -5C/20F heating time should be limited (stops even before getting to 5C). This is because
moderate driving at near freezing temperatures lets battery warm up above that minimum recommended threshold (about 5C/40F)
but moderate driving in -20C/0F will not heat the chemistry at all. It is very hard to get chemistry up to temperature before using
rapid charging for example. I've been stuck at rapid charging station with pumping going below half of nominal speed even at battery low on juice.
Those cells near the edges achieve maximum voltage too early and charging can't go any faster.
There is absolutely no fear of excessive heat in any below freezing temperature. This is not possible with reasonable driving.

Anyway Nissan could add one more tickbox called: battery preconditioning for cold weather.
What's more important they can proudly say that range in cold climate is even better than before
just with the help of a small FREE software upgrade. This is a fact.
I know they can do it because existing system wakes up Leaf 2 hours prior to departure. Then it calculates
for how long climate control has to be activated. During that time battery can be preconditioned.
Exception: no battery preconditioning if unplugged.

EDIT:
I calculated that during that 2 hour period battery can be preheated up to 6,5*C (11,7*F).
I presume heating elements are in total 300W. Heating elements have excellent configuration inside the battery.
Also there is an air gap between cells and battery housing. Not a lot of lost heat when stationary.
6C/11F is not always enough for my expectations but it makes a huge difference after all :idea:

There is a reason why Tesla has 6000W heater for battery.

Not specifically for Leaf cells:
age_temperature.gif
 
arnis said:
For those who want to do d) "manually":
With 0-2 segments: ECO only. Massive range reduction with acceleration above 20kW

With 9-10 segments: half power ~40kW (ECO), 15kW regen (D mode, not B), obey speed limit, do not discharge to very low.
With 11 segments: do not charge, avoid regen, 30kW power, up to 55mph/90km/h, do not AC.
With 12 segments: do not drive, keep charge between 1/3 and 2/3.

Good stuff: I'll use some of this now that I have a new battery pack.
Thanks for posting!
 
I forgot that in US there are more problems with high temperatures than with low temperatures.
Not the case where I live but for hotter Leafs I made a little more research :ugeek:

Turns out that there are two things that heat up the battery the most:
1) Discharge below 3.5V per cell - Up until that point discharging the battery adds reasonable amount of heat.
Going below that starts to produce more and more heat with the same discharge speed (for example just
driving on highway motor uses 15-20kW).
2) Faster charge/discharge rate - pushing 40kW for 10 seconds is much worse than pushing 20kW for 20 seconds.
And pushing 80kW for 5 seconds is much worse than pushing 40kW for 10 seconds. Same with charging and regen.

In addition I would recommend for daily users with hot batteries to prefer going over 80% in cool morning rather
than going really low (even for short period) while getting home in hot afternoon. It appears that charging
above 80% is not party killer. We shall not forget the golden rule: do not stay at full charge for ages.

I (or anyone else?) will find the state of charge at reasonable discharge speed (15-20kW steady speed),
weakest cell voltage 3.5V, temp 6-10 bars, using LeafSpy. Then we can report to novice users.
 
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