Another LEAF with range collapse

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

maxrep

New member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
4
My 2011 LEAF with 38,500 miles has lost two capacity bars. In my opinion the capacity bars lie.
With a full charge the LEAF claims a range of 73 miles. Driving on level ground between 45 and 60mph, I can get no more than 56-58 miles to turtle mode.
If I drive at 65mph, the range drops to 47 miles to turtle mode.
I have tried contacting Nissan and the dealership but they won't hear about it unless I am down to 8 capacity bars.

The LEAF support techs (877-664-2738) suggested that I fork out $5400 + $250 installation for a replacement battery but there was no guarantee that I would get 12 bars back.
At this point I can no longer commute to work one way.
Anyone else on this forum had success convincing Nissan to actually diagnose a defective battery?
Thanks in advance.
 
What part of the world do you live in? What is the temperature there while doing these tests? If it is really cold, then your current range may be normal for having lost 2 bars. A leafspy would be good to have a look at the actual capacity. Also, I see NO REASON why you would not get 12 bars if you forked out the money for a new battery.. it's new, so it should have full 12 bars.
 
adric22 said:
What part of the world do you live in? What is the temperature there while doing these tests? If it is really cold, then your current range may be normal for having lost 2 bars. A leafspy would be good to have a look at the actual capacity. Also, I see NO REASON why you would not get 12 bars if you forked out the money for a new battery.. it's new, so it should have full 12 bars.

I live in Silicon Valley in California. Temps have been in the low 60F lately in the mornings and 70s midday.
I did the test yesterday mid-day when the temp was about 70F.
 
maxrep said:
With a full charge the LEAF claims a range of 73 miles.
You mean the Leaf display where it estimates how many miles the car thinks it should get?
The GOM (Guess-O-Meter)?

I wouldn't say that it "lies" per se, but it's really really innacurate.. ;-)

What does your "Energy Economy" say for miles per kWh in the display?
Might want to reset that to be safe, and then see what it says you're getting after driving a bit.
Combining that with actual battery life left (do you have an OBD2 adapter and something like Leaf Spy?) should let you know what you "should" be getting (about) on that pack..

desiv
 
desiv said:
maxrep said:
With a full charge the LEAF claims a range of 73 miles.
You mean the Leaf display where it estimates how many miles the car thinks it should get?
The GOM (Guess-O-Meter)?

I wouldn't say that it "lies" per se, but it's really really innacurate.. ;-)

What does your "Energy Economy" say for miles per kWh in the display?
Might want to reset that to be safe, and then see what it says you're getting after driving a bit.
Combining that with actual battery life left (do you have an OBD2 adapter and something like Leaf Spy?) should let you know what you "should" be getting (about) on that pack..

desiv

I meant the "capacity bars" lie. I routinely get 4.4 miles/kWh. My with a 2 bar loss, I should still get about 80% of the original range. Assuming 20kWh usable capacity on a new battery, with a 2-bar loss I should still have 16kWh. With 4.4miles/kWh the estimated range should be 70 miles.
 
I'm not sure that they lie again per se, but I don't think they represent a straight percentage either.
(Kind of like those older (VW Bug??) gas tank gauges where the needle being in the middle did NOT mean half a tank left..)

More like this:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

desiv
 
maxrep said:
desiv said:
maxrep said:
With a full charge the LEAF claims a range of 73 miles.
You mean the Leaf display where it estimates how many miles the car thinks it should get?
The GOM (Guess-O-Meter)?

I wouldn't say that it "lies" per se, but it's really really innacurate.. ;-)

What does your "Energy Economy" say for miles per kWh in the display?
Might want to reset that to be safe, and then see what it says you're getting after driving a bit.
Combining that with actual battery life left (do you have an OBD2 adapter and something like Leaf Spy?) should let you know what you "should" be getting (about) on that pack..

desiv

I meant the "capacity bars" lie. I routinely get 4.4 miles/kWh. My with a 2 bar loss, I should still get about 80% of the original range. Assuming 20kWh usable capacity on a new battery, with a 2-bar loss I should still have 16kWh. With 4.4miles/kWh the estimated range should be 70 miles.

The top bar is worth more than two of the lower bars. With 2 bars lost you'd get more like 70% of the original range and only if you drive to VLBW.

I'm not going to worry about duplicates at the cusp, I'm sure you aren't worried about the last tenth of a percent. Oh and there are two kinds of bars

capacity bars
100% to 85% = 12 bars (15%)
85% to 78.75% = 11 bars (6.25%)
78.75% to 72.5% = 10 bars (6.25%)
72.5% to 66.25% = 9 bars (6.25%)
66.25% to 60% = 8 bars (6.25%)
60% to 53.75% = 7 bars (6.25%)
53.75% to 47.5% = 6 bars (6.25%)
47.5% to 41.25% = 5 bars (6.25%)
41.25% to 35% = 4 bars (6.25%)
35% to 28.75% = 3 bars (6.25%)
28.75% to 22.5% = 2 bars (6.25%)
22.5% to 16.25% = 1 bar (6.25%)



charge bars http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
100% to 91.5% = 12 bars (8.5%)
91.5% to 84% = 11 bars (7.5%)
84% to 77.9% = 10 bars (6.1%)
77.9% to 70.8% = 9 bars (7.1%)
70.8% to 66.2% = 8 bars (4.6%)
66.2% to 58% = 7 bars (8.2%)
58% to 50.9% = 6 bars (7.1%)
50.9% to 43.4% = 5 bars (7.5%)
43.4% to 36.3 = 4 bars (7.1%)
36.3% to 31.3% = 3 bars (5%)
31.3% to 26% = 2 bars (5.3%)
26% to 17.4% = 1 bar (8.6%)*
Low battery
Very low battery
Turtle

*see range chart and other threads for how dangerously quick you can drop from 1 bar to turtle. Don't rely on expected range at low states of charge.

and note the charge percents I gave were based on a 100% capacity battery all the charge bars get modified if the capacity is below 100%.

as you can see a significant portion of your battery is hidden at the bottom end by the low battery warnings so if you aren't pushing the low battery warnings you are giving up a big chunk of range in a moderate environment at slower speeds (the typical end of trip driving to a parking space or charging station).

Also notice the wide variety of percentages for "one bar" it can be as little as 4.6% and as much as 8.5% on one scale and as litlle as 6.25% and as high as 15% on the other scale.

also the battery is 24kWh but only about 21 kWh is available to you. So with 2 bars lost you have somewhere between 78.75% to 72.5% of 21 kWh which is 16.5 to 15.2 kWh usable as a rough estimate. Note that is close to the kWh you though you had but I'm assuming you are relying on the GOM and not pushing LBW.
 
maxrep said:
My 2011 LEAF with 38,500 miles has lost two capacity bars. In my opinion the capacity bars lie.
With a full charge the LEAF claims a range of 73 miles. Driving on level ground between 45 and 60mph, I can get no more than 56-58 miles to turtle mode.
If I drive at 65mph, the range drops to 47 miles to turtle mode.
Are you sure you getting all the way to turtle? With that driving that sounds like about the range I get (with 2 bars gone and similar mileage) to the first low battery warning (LBW - 6-9 mi showing on the GOM and starts flashing). From there I can typically get about another 8 miles to the 2nd low battery warning (VLBW - 3-4 miles showing on the GOM which turns to --- shortly after the warning) and from there another 4 miles to turtle (warning that says reduced power, turtle lights up on dash), though I have not re-tested that recently.

If that really is to turtle (reduced propulsion, less than a mile before the car stops moving), then is it possible you don't have all the firmware updates applied to the car or had them applied recently?

Do you have LeafSpy or a similar tool?

maxrep said:
The LEAF support techs (877-664-2738) suggested that I fork out $5400 + $250 installation for a replacement battery but there was no guarantee that I would get 12 bars back.
If you pay $5400 for a new pack, absolutely you will get a brand new battery with 12 bars of capacity. In addition, it will be the latest chemistry used in currently shipping LEAFs which has the so called "lizard" chemistry which in theory should be significantly more durable than your original LEAF.

maxrep said:
At this point I can no longer commute to work one way.
Which is highly annoying. How far is your commute? The best suggestion to keep you going would be to either slow down (5 mph slower should get you about 10% more range) or find a convenient QC to stop at for 5 minutes.

maxrep said:
Anyone else on this forum had success convincing Nissan to actually diagnose a defective battery?
The only reported battery replacements I've seen happen after 4 capacity bars lost or after the car generates a CEL when one or more cell-pairs gets significantly weaker than the rest, but that is not at all common.
 
A good bump in tire pressure can cause your real world range to increase too. 44 psi is the side wall max. If you rely on the dealer to set the pressure for you many times they are set hot vs cold. To set a proper cold pressure you should do it first thing in the morning before the car is driven or before the sun is up. Just based on the way the dealerships do business this isn't practical. You drive the car in in the day get them hot then the tech drives the car. When a car is brand new the tech will usually take the car out for a road test before they bring it in the bay to see if anything sounds/feels off and hence the tires will be warm.

Also many dealerships have people that will set all tires to a standard psi for all cars, probably 33ish. The leaf recommends 38 (I think). When I got mine brand new the next day checked cold and they were 30 psi. So if you have your own pump (you can use the car one without the bottle of seal stuff) do it first thing in the morning. If you'd rather use a gas station pump do it close to home, pump it past 50 psi then first thing in the morning let air out till it's at the setting you want.

By the fact that you say "I routinely get 4.4 miles/kWh" I would assume you reset the gauge often. To really be sure you should reset it every trip. I'm not sure if you know but the one in the dash and the one on the energy screen in the radio are different so if you reset one the other doesn't get re set. If you don't reset it on every trip you take then it makes a manual calculation of your range difficult.

Also be aware that most commutes will have a drop/gain in altitude and a direction that is usually against the wind. For example my commute on the way to work I usually have the wind at my back and I live on the top of an escarpment so it's an easier drive. When I get to work and charge to 100% it will give me a GOM based on that drive, for a brand new battery they range in the summer 100-125 miles. However as soon as I start going back home I've got a harder drive so the GOM will drop miles much quicker. By the time I get home and I've gone 45 miles on 50%+ battery I charge up to 100% again and then the GOM based on the past hard drive will show 90-112 miles. I do a re set of the gauge every time I drive, in the summer going to work is easily around 6 mile/kWh at 55-62 mph mostly highway and coming home is 5-5.5. So when it reads high you are likely to turn around and be harder on it and when it reads low again you're likely to turn around and go easy on it.

As far as the spending $5500 to make your trip you can get a good set or light wheels and LRR tires for way less that will give you a good bump.

Right now tire rack has the kosei K1 TS for $129, 17 in 15 lbs each. You can get 16s as low as 12lbs, kosei k4r $159 (tire rack says 16s fit the leaf but centre caps don't so it's not listed, search by a 2009 civic to see it), 16in Enkei RPF1 which tire rack shows as a fit but doesn't come with centre caps, $211 13.7lbs or 15s but with the leaf big brakes only buy those at a place that can test fit. I have 15in SSR Comp that are 10.4lbs each for my winters, they JUST fit. Rota has a lot of cheap sub 13lb rims.

For tires you can use the Michelin energy a/s in any diameter, 205 60 16, 215 50 17 or 195 65 15 and that tire is regarded as being the best you can buy in North America.

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Whee...se&filterNew=All&filterWeight=All&sort=Weight
 
I have been frustrated with Nissan also. My 2011 can make it to work (34 miles slight downhill grade) but after charging to 100% at work I make it home in last red bar. I drive 32 of the 34 on freeway and that is driving right lane, drafting and driving 55 to 65. I can no longer take the carpool lanes
that I waited so many years to open. I gave the Leaf to my daughter almost 2 years ago) to drive locally and I leased a FIT EV so I can take advantage of carpool lanes. ( I was driving close to 30,000 miles a year the first two years)

I approached Nissan first through my local dealer who said they could do nothing for me and suggested a new battery, and then I wrote to Nissan and got a call back a few weeks later. She said they would look into it and get back to me. A few days later they called back and first gave me suggestions for
getting more range from my charge (like checking tire pressure and staying to the right and driving 5 mph less!!)
I explained that my 4 year old car that I bought to commute in can barely get me to work one way and with a little more time it would not get me there at all. She said Nissan suggests a new battery for the $5000+ discussed here.

They explained the battery warranty was only good if I had lost so many bars before 60,000 miles, I explained that I lost that bar at 62,000. They would not cut me any slack. So much for Leaf #11, I took a chance and purchased, and only got two years of commuting out of it. It has been a good local car now ,but even as a local car it takes planning for my daughter to get to school, practice, tutoring and home.

I read that there might be a new battery with better range coming in mid-2016 models. Any idea if that battery will be available as a replacement?
I would much rather wait for that than to spend $5000+ now and get the older technology.

I am loving the FIT, almost 50,000 miles now, and no range issues. I can charge at work and make it home and back to work to charge without issues
and still go 70+ in carpool lane with air conditioning!!
 
HobbyGuy, Since I see your entry at the top of the wiki I think of your case every time I add a new loss.

I hope it helps you to know what leafer77 found out about BBB arbitration and appeal. He got a new battery after over 70,000 miles. See

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19880&start=130#p439072 and he details how the process went in further posts.
 
Sad story... BBB sounds good. Also, maybe-just-maybe that new 107-mile battery will be offered as retrofit. Check with Nissan.

Personally I'm waiting now for Chevy Bolt. Returning Spark EV in 2016 just as Bolt comes out. My mantra: lease only! Both Soul (23,00 miles) and Spark (32,000 miles) no real range loss or battery concerns. Also, no engine whine! I'm so done with Nissan.
 
hobbyguy said:
My 2011 can make it to work (34 miles slight downhill grade) but after charging to 100% at work I make it home in last red bar.

If you're commuting to LA (like most people in Santa Clarita do) your commute is NOT a "slight downhill grade." There's a 600 foot elevation change just in the 20 miles between Newhall (the town) and Burbank Airport, and that doesn't even include Newhall Pass which trucks often have trouble with (which is why Caltrans gave them their own lanes, which are clogged up by cars as well).

Even when my Leaf was new, the only way I could make it to Santa Clarita and back from the Pasadena area on a single charge was by taking city streets. Often I'd have to detour into the San Fernando Valley on the way back and do a top up charge like at Nissan Mission Hills.
 
I went to dealer, got all paperwork they had on the car, only one at 45,000 that read 5/5 stars. I called 800 number since local dealer would not do anything about starting a claim. I called, they took information again, they said they would look into it, call my dealer and do some research. Called back today and told me I was too far out of warranty and they could do nothing. So BBB is the next step. I will go to dealer next week and have them run an official battery report and go from there. I am at 71,041 miles and have 2 red and 4 white bars left - down 6
When I took to the dealer in Feb with 68063 miles I had just gone down my 5th bar. Now 3000 miles later down another.
At this rate by 80,000 I should be at 2 red only. Latest LeafSpy is 43.8% SOC / 4.6kWh /14.5Ah /375.5V /1Wh/ 90.8F/59 GIDs (21.0%)
Should I pursue a claim based on the 100,000 / 8 year battery warranty?
62,041 down 3, 65,068 down 4, 68063 down 5 and now 71,041 down 6. I am going down fast!!
Should I pursue BBB or battery warranty? Even explaining all this to Nissan they still declined my claim, so maybe BBB is best.
5 years comes up (January 5, 2016) pretty soon.
 
hobbyguy said:
Should I pursue a claim based on the 100,000 / 8 year battery warranty?
62,041 down 3, 65,068 down 4, 68063 down 5 and now 71,041 down 6. I am going down fast!!
Should I pursue BBB or battery warranty? Even explaining all this to Nissan they still declined my claim, so maybe BBB is best.
5 years comes up (January 5, 2016) pretty soon.

Pursue BBB on the grounds the battery is defective with very high capacity loss and Nissan not honoring the 100k/8year warranty. We have one success report so far. I've just started my claim process. Not sure what's next if it leads nowhere, perhaps we can get LA Times interested to publish an article about real-life Leaf ownership experience in SoCal to draw more of Nissan's attention to owners who are stuck with degraded packs just past the warranty.
 
"Pursue BBB on the grounds the battery is defective with very high capacity loss and Nissan not honoring the 100k/8year warranty. We have one success report so far. I've just started my claim process. Not sure what's next if it leads nowhere, perhaps we can get LA Times interested to publish an article about real-life Leaf ownership experience in SoCal to draw more of Nissan's attention to owners who are stuck with degraded packs just past the warranty"

Have you started with BBB or just the 800 number? I was dealing with Nissan of Valencia, who are you talking to? We look to be in very similar situations
 
hobbyguy said:
Have you started with BBB or just the 800 number? I was dealing with Nissan of Valencia, who are you talking to? We look to be in very similar situations

Started with the 800 number, called them to open a case, they were happy to tell me I was over 60k so no cap. warranty, but I didn't care just needed a case # in their system. Took my car to a dealer, had them write up the 4 bar loss and my complaint about reduced range so there is a record of my attempt to get it fixed at a dealer. Wrote a letter to an executive, it was a long shot, the letter just got bounced to the EV support folks, whatever. Opened a BBB case online, sent the information they requested last week. Now waiting what's next.
 
Valdemar said:
hobbyguy said:
Have you started with BBB or just the 800 number? I was dealing with Nissan of Valencia, who are you talking to? We look to be in very similar situations

Started with the 800 number, called them to open a case, they were happy to tell me I was over 60k so no cap. warranty, but I didn't care just needed a case # in their system. Took my car to a dealer, had them write up the 4 bar loss and my complaint about reduced range so there is a record of my attempt to get it fixed at a dealer. Wrote a letter to an executive, it was a long shot, the letter just got bounced to the EV support folks, whatever. Opened a BBB case online, sent the information they requested last week. Now waiting what's next.


Any new updates? Would love to hear how this turns out.
 
Jefe said:
Valdemar said:
hobbyguy said:
Have you started with BBB or just the 800 number? I was dealing with Nissan of Valencia, who are you talking to? We look to be in very similar situations

Started with the 800 number, called them to open a case, they were happy to tell me I was over 60k so no cap. warranty, but I didn't care just needed a case # in their system. Took my car to a dealer, had them write up the 4 bar loss and my complaint about reduced range so there is a record of my attempt to get it fixed at a dealer. Wrote a letter to an executive, it was a long shot, the letter just got bounced to the EV support folks, whatever. Opened a BBB case online, sent the information they requested last week. Now waiting what's next.


Any new updates? Would love to hear how this turns out.

My case is still in limbo between Nissan and BBB, waiting for arbitration. More details in this topic:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19880
 
Back
Top