epic
Well-known member
I only 110volt charge my leaf and cmax energy.If Nissan or others come out with the bigger batteries will this approach still be practicle?
doublr range ,double charge time?
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cwerdna
Well-known member
Depends. Rav4 EV has ~41 kWh usable battery and http://www.toyota.com/content/ebrochure/2013/rav4ev_ebrochure.pdf?_loadHeatmap=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; mentions 44 hour charge time at 120 volts, 12 amps for standard charge (should be 80%) and 52 hours for extended (100%) charge.
If you start at a certain point in time with a full battery and can replenish enough each night or wherever to keep making your commutes/drives...
If you start at a certain point in time with a full battery and can replenish enough each night or wherever to keep making your commutes/drives...
dm33
Well-known member
Charging speed can be measured as the number of miles of range per hour of charging. The size of the battery doesn't change the speed of charge except for L3. L1 tends to be around 3-5 miles of range per hour. L2 is around 25-30. L3 tries to charge the battery fast enough that it goes from empty to 80% in 20 minutes regardless of how large the battery is. Tesla's still charge in roughly 20 minute with a much larger battery. However, today's L3 charge stations intended for the LEAF may not provide sufficient current to charge a larger battery in 20 minutes. We may need to go through another round of charger upgrades.
dm33 said:
Only at 6.6kW. At 3.3kW, L2 is only good for around 14 miles per hour of charging in the LEAF.
forummm
Well-known member
For L1, it would either double it or almost double it. For L2 and DCQC, it would not quite double it. The last 10-20% (or so) slow down dramatically on either L2 or DCQC. So if you doubled the battery, you could blaze through the entire first 24 kWh without slowing down at all, and do the same with the 2nd 24 kWh until you got to that slow-down zone again, which should have the same number of kWh remaining as in the smaller battery.
dhanson865
Well-known member
Zythryn said:
and if it has a L3 charge port you can L1 at home and L3 for the once a year style trips.
smkettner
Well-known member
Yesepic said:
Nubo
Well-known member
epic said:
The basic question is how many miles you drive per day vs. how many miles of range you can add with the charger in the amount of time available.
Even a Tesla can be charged with Level 1. If you drive a Tesla 30-40 miles a day, Level 1 is enough. In fact it would probably still enough if you drive 30-40 miles 6 days a week and 200 miles once a week. One doesn't always have to charge to 100%, just enough to cover the next day's driving.
Other factors to consider are that Level 2 charging is more energy efficient and may give a better safety margin than pushing a 120V circuit hard for so many hours on end.
Moof
Well-known member
Twice the battery actually may translate to less need for high rate home charging. Right now it is handy to have 6.6 kW to allow you to have a decent commute, then add another 30 miles before running a trip in the evening. A bigger battery means you will will have a lot higher reserve and can reasonably average out the peak days better.
DanCar
Well-known member
Yes. You will just have a bigger reserve. If you have a car with 400 mile electric range and you drive it for 20 miles then it will still take 4 hours to charge via 110V. If you completely drain the 400 mile car then it will take 5 days to charge via 110V.epic said:
minispeed
Well-known member
dm33 said:
It would be wrong to use miles per hour of charging to compare 2 different BEVs. Miles per hour is only usefull to 1 driver of 1 particular BEV who drives pretty consistently.
For the original question there are really 3 parts to answer (I skimmed through the post so if someone else said it already sorry).
First part, for L1 charge no matter where you are in North America the standard is 15 amp breakers that can supply a max of 12 amps continuous. Just to ensure that every BEV sold can plug in at pretty much any plug in North America you probably won't see any of them offer more than that as an upper limit. Multiply that by the voltage you get to find out how many kW you have coming into the car.
Second part depends on efficiency. If you took the leaf now and doubled the range only by increasing battery size the efficiency would go down due to the weight of the new battery. To get double range you'd need more than double the battery which means less efficiency and more than double the charge time. However doubling the range can be done in other ways other than adding more batteries. They can improve aero, reduce weight and improve the systems efficiency (drive system and charger but there's not as many gains to be made there). We have no idea how they will combine those three options so you'll have to wait until the car comes out to find out.
Third part is how this relates to you. Since your lifestyle will have a set amount of time that you can leave the car plugged in on L1. If the leaf works for you now then if your next BEV has an efficiency the same as the leaf you will be able to use it in the exact same fashion. If you constantly get your leaf topped up to 100% on L1 you will be able to use more range in the new car but maybe not all of it. If the new car has a larger battery but less efficiency than the leaf now then you may be able to use the same range but if you're not topping up to 100% every day now then chances are you will get less usable range out of it with only L1. If the new car has greater efficiency than the leaf then you will be able to drive further than you do now but just how much will be unknown until the car comes out, it may not be the max range.
You will start out with a bigger reserve but without knowing your driving habits and the efficiency and battery size of the new car there's no way to tell if you would have the time to put back any millage you use from that reserve as you use it. If the reserve takes a month to dwindle down then you swing by a fast charger that's a small price to pay, if you don't have a fast charger in the area you may look at a several hours at a public charger to get it back up. Most public chargers for the near future will be limited to 6.6-7.2kW regardless of the charger found in the new vehicle.
JasonA
Well-known member
I'll actually post on this because this is something I've been testing extensively for over the last week on the Rav, CHAdeMO charging.
Now while the Rav has a 41kwH usable (some say abit more, I've put back in 44kwH after losses myself).. and we just met up with a new 2015 Leaf that probably has what??? 21 or 22 usable out of 24kwH?
So to start... Standard Nissan DCQC unit.. 120a max.. http://nissanqc.com/pdf/techspecs.pdf
The Rav pulls 115a all the way to 380v (limit) and then begins taper... (takes me longer because I'm filling a bigger tank! 1c charge rate) Tesla goes INSANE on the S. all the way to 345a on the 85kwH.. 280a on the 60kwH.. (do the math! that's a NICE c/rate) :lol:
I know 2 people who have Kia Soul EV's... they pull 115 to 120a and then will start to taper around 75-80% quickly! but it's a 24-25kwh usable? It fills FAST! (NOTE!! charge at a ABB 50kwh CHAdeMO and it' balls to the wall 130a :lol: )
Now.. onto the Leaf
Late last night, at the LADWP substation... I was doing a small fillup and up flies this all black (everything, windows, wheels etc) Leaf looking desperate!!!! :lol: (we've all been there!)
He was basically on Turtle so he checkouts the Rav for a bit and we talked about his 2015 and then we switched over to him.
I watched the screen.. jump from 1%... 2% (quickly)....then 4% :shock: skipping 3 but MAX AMPS was bouncing between 99-103 and 345v.
As it got up to the high teens quickly.. 17%..18% it was pulling 104a @363v and it never went over 104amps...
I stayed and talked and watched as he hit the 40-50% mark but he told me he's hit TURTLE 9 times and has been towed twice already :shock:
What I don't understand is this.. a new 2015 Leaf and they still are not allowing full power into the battery?
The title of this thread was "doublr range ,double charge time?.. not if it's Nissan. Other EV's yes. They still don't seem to have charging under their belt.
That was a disappointment as I've never seen a 15 Leaf DCQC and I was expecting the full amount
Now while the Rav has a 41kwH usable (some say abit more, I've put back in 44kwH after losses myself).. and we just met up with a new 2015 Leaf that probably has what??? 21 or 22 usable out of 24kwH?
So to start... Standard Nissan DCQC unit.. 120a max.. http://nissanqc.com/pdf/techspecs.pdf
The Rav pulls 115a all the way to 380v (limit) and then begins taper... (takes me longer because I'm filling a bigger tank! 1c charge rate) Tesla goes INSANE on the S. all the way to 345a on the 85kwH.. 280a on the 60kwH.. (do the math! that's a NICE c/rate) :lol:
I know 2 people who have Kia Soul EV's... they pull 115 to 120a and then will start to taper around 75-80% quickly! but it's a 24-25kwh usable? It fills FAST! (NOTE!! charge at a ABB 50kwh CHAdeMO and it' balls to the wall 130a :lol: )
Now.. onto the Leaf
Late last night, at the LADWP substation... I was doing a small fillup and up flies this all black (everything, windows, wheels etc) Leaf looking desperate!!!! :lol: (we've all been there!)
He was basically on Turtle so he checkouts the Rav for a bit and we talked about his 2015 and then we switched over to him.
I watched the screen.. jump from 1%... 2% (quickly)....then 4% :shock: skipping 3 but MAX AMPS was bouncing between 99-103 and 345v.
As it got up to the high teens quickly.. 17%..18% it was pulling 104a @363v and it never went over 104amps...
I stayed and talked and watched as he hit the 40-50% mark but he told me he's hit TURTLE 9 times and has been towed twice already :shock:
What I don't understand is this.. a new 2015 Leaf and they still are not allowing full power into the battery?
The title of this thread was "doublr range ,double charge time?.. not if it's Nissan. Other EV's yes. They still don't seem to have charging under their belt.
That was a disappointment as I've never seen a 15 Leaf DCQC and I was expecting the full amount
smkettner
Well-known member
^^^^^ I speculate the limit is due to no active cooling.
JasonA
Well-known member
I kinda agree.. but we're talking the "Lizard Battery" here and it was 61* or around there in the valley last night...smkettner said:
This was no summer night at 105* :lol:
minispeed
Well-known member
JasonA said:
I think Nissans goal was to aim for the 30 min to 80%. So if they go a bit faster what does that get them, 28 or 27 min? What does that mean to you? For most people not that much, most people won't even notice if they only have 27 min to charge they will leave at 27 min and probably have enough range.
What can it mean to Nissan, batteries that stay a bit cooler and are hence more reliable. Yes it's the new lizard battery but they would still be smart to go slow and test it out. Having higher reliability is more important than a small speed increase in DC charge times. Probably the same logic that has GM using such a small % of the volt battery, they should have been able to do 60 miles on the new volt no problem, so what if it degrades and eventually gets 50 miles. For the whole time in between you got extra EV miles, but no they want to say 50 miles from day 1 and show on paper that the battery was more reliable.
smkettner
Well-known member
The lizard apparently can handle the existing heat. Nissan is not going to ramp up charging to negate the lizard upgrade.
JasonA
Well-known member
I don't agree, think about the TITLE OF THE THREAD! :roll:
Given Nissan's current mentality, then I'd say yes! They should be pushing new battery chemistry (like the LB/2015) and pushing the charge rates abit further and reducing times as much as possible.
You don't see ANY OTHER EV manufacture reducing or keeping their charge times high/rates low :roll: . This is a "in it to win it game" and you're going to see faster Supercharging stations, higher power CCS stations, CHAdeMO hopefully (50kw now and above), etc..
You're competition is gas, and if DOUBLE CAPACITY means a double time...because they don't want to ramp up..
That's ain't fly Nissan :?
Given Nissan's current mentality, then I'd say yes! They should be pushing new battery chemistry (like the LB/2015) and pushing the charge rates abit further and reducing times as much as possible.
You don't see ANY OTHER EV manufacture reducing or keeping their charge times high/rates low :roll: . This is a "in it to win it game" and you're going to see faster Supercharging stations, higher power CCS stations, CHAdeMO hopefully (50kw now and above), etc..
You're competition is gas, and if DOUBLE CAPACITY means a double time...because they don't want to ramp up..
That's ain't fly Nissan :?
minispeed
Well-known member
JasonA said:
Yes but also read the OP, L1 isn't going to change, most public L2 will still have a 30 amp max.
You're not going to convince many dealers to put a new L3 in, or even pay for an upgrade to current L3s. If a new high speed chamedo comes out it may make the old style cheaper and people may still install new old speed units because they're cheaper.
So where's the return to the customer of they put say a 12kwW on board charger. It would cause frustration to repeat leaf customers who now feel they have to spend extra and replace thier home unit to take advantage of the charger. It will also give a bad headline "everytime a new electric car comes out you'll also have to buy a new unit for your home at up to $2000."
Yes from the technological point of view they should up the game, that would keep us car forum type happy but they also have to satisfy the people who know nothing about the car and just want it to be compatible with what they bought already.
I think we'll see the car launch with a bump in charging, under 10 kW, then maybe an upgrade across the line in 2-3 years or a second charger option.
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