Metal Air Battery thread

I see that Zinc and Aluminum metal air batteries are becoming a reality, and Tesla even has a patent out on a Lithium Ion/Metal Air combo. This is looking like the beginning of what investors refer to as a "disruptive technology". It has the potential to not just make sweeping changes to the car industry, but also to the entire energy industry, and it comes at a time when oil is in a protracted decline. Can you imagine a 1000 mile EV? Or going completely off the grid with your solar panels in a cost effective manner?

Here are a bunch of links for anyone who hasn't done their reading yet:
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-patents-hint-400-mile-hybrid-lithiumionmetalair-battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93air_battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.phinergy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidic_Energy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://fluidicenergy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's find some companies that are publicly traded so we can make some green stuff! :mrgreen:

ElectricMonkey said:

I see that Zinc and Aluminum metal air batteries are becoming a reality, and Tesla even has a patent out on a Lithium Ion/Metal Air combo. This is looking like the beginning of what investors refer to as a "disruptive technology". It has the potential to not just make sweeping changes to the car industry, but also to the entire energy industry, and it comes at a time when oil is in a protracted decline. Can you imagine a 1000 mile EV? Or going completely off the grid with your solar panels in a cost effective manner?

Here are a bunch of links for anyone who hasn't done their reading yet:
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-patents-hint-400-mile-hybrid-lithiumionmetalair-battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93air_battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.phinergy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidic_Energy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://fluidicenergy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's find some companies that are publicly traded so we can make some green stuff! :mrgreen:

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Many batteries have been "becoming a reality" for many years but that is far off from use in an EV. I assume their patent will be open for all to use since Elon is sharing them all :lol:

Like many other battery technologies being investigated this does appear to have some hope of being a viable tech. However, for those who don't wish to read all the links, the key issue right now is that of creating a rechargeable version that has decent efficiency and can be done quickly. The oxidation of the zinc is great - lots of power for the weight of the battery, but once depleted you have to either replace parts (feed in fresh zinc and remove the oxidized) or use a very slow and perhaps risky/complex recharge system.

So - yes, it is a good idea in many ways, but I'm not convinced that the engineering/chemical challenges are close enough to solved to even consider going to market (although you can bet someone selling stocks in startups will do their best to convince you).

Perhaps for single use, short term output they could be a viable energy source in current form. Not sure where that would be though... Can't see it being a primary battery for a BEV until you can recharge it in a simple and rapid manner.

Slow1 said:

for those who don't wish to read all the links, the key issue right now is

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"It is the first and only company to commercialize and deliver rechargeable metal-air battery technology in high production volumes for commercial load-shifting applications... Entering into global commercialization in mid-2011 with over 35,000 batteries in operation by mid-2014, the technology is proven to increase reliability and outperform the incumbents in terms of cost, longevity and functionality. " -From that Scottsdale AZ company's "About us" link.

I'm pretty sure that means the tech is already there, working, and being sold. What we need to figure out, as little guys, is how to invest in it.

From the q3 2014 earnings conference call at Tesla (TSLA):

Rod Lache (Analyst - Deutsche Bank):

... I also had a question on battery costs. There are some new manufacturing processes for cathode material, for example, being developed by Umicore and TODA and a few others that the claim is that you're going to see pretty significant declines in some of the kind of core components of lithium cells. Is that something that's been factored into your expectations of a 30% cost reduction for these batteries over time?

Elon Musk (Chairman and CEO):

Then with respect to the cathode materials, I think there's a lot of technology improvements that we'll be able to apply to the battery pack and the cathode anode separator, electrolyte, counter production, the whole works, and some of these improvements are independent of the others.

But whatever we have has to work -- whatever we build out for the Gigafactory has to work at least, at the lab level, let's say, this year, because we're making monster investments in equipment and there's a certain amount of time of a year or two at least from working at the lab level to working in small scale production and then at least a year or two after that before you can go from small production to mass production. This is why we're not worried about like being blind-sided by some technology with the Gigafactory. It's because if it doesn't work in the lab right now, there's no point in worrying about it because you can't scale in that timeframe. Everyone and their mom is approaching us about technology improvements. I think, literally, and their mom in some cases. JB, do you want to add?

JB Straubel (Chief Technology Officer):

Sure. We are definitely talking to many, many different companies doing cathode technology development, anode and some of the other components, including some of those you mentioned. I'd be pretty shocked if there were any major improvements that were close enough to commercialization that we haven't been aware of or found out about. So a lot of those improvements are rolled into our thinking and there's great potential there.

Elon Musk (Chairman and CEO):

My top advice, really, for anyone who says they've got some breakthrough battery technologies, please send us a sample cell. Don't send us PowerPoint. Just send us one cell that works with all appropriate caveats, that would be great. That's really -- that sorts out the type of nonsense and the claims that aren't true.

JB Straubel (Chief Technology Officer):

Talk it a little bit cheap.

Elon Musk (Chairman and CEO):

Talk is super cheap. The battery industry has to have more BS in it than any industry I've ever encountered. It's insane.

Bolded items by me, and it shows the reality of the situation. I've been driving electric for 20+ years and even when I started, there was always some great battery tech just around the corner that would be a giant leap forward. So far Lithium batteries were the only real leap, and it did not happen overnight, it was a slow introduction, so we won't see any new tech go directly into mass produced electric cars. It will probably hit small electronics first and then when proven make its way into cars. As Elon put it so nicely...just show us one working prototype that can be tested independently of the manufacturer and you'll have something. Most of these battery improvements are just on paper with only the manufacturers lab results proving just how great they are.

By the way, I also do think metal air shows promise, but not anytime soon. This should probably head to the "future battery tech" thread until someone has a product that they sent to Elon (so to speak).

palmermd said:

By the way, I also do think metal air shows promise, but not anytime soon. This should probably head to the "future battery tech" thread until someone has a product that they sent to Elon (so to speak).

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I realize there are people, such as yourself, who are a lot more versed in the technology than I am, however, are we supposed to call it "future tech", when the first company I posted a link to, Phinergy, has a video clip of them driving around in an EV with their working prototype, and the second company, Fluidic Energy, has already sold over 35K rechargeable, Metal Air batteries for commercial applications? And, as the first link I posted shows, Tesla has their own patent for the tech. Is that "future tech"? Or is it, maybe, what is to be build at this giant Giggle factory that Elon Musk references :lol:

Note to self- check this thread in three years to see if there are any working packs in EVs.

Note to moderator: how about moving this to the "future batteries" thread. We don't need a separate thread for every type of battery that might conceivably come to fruition at some point in the future.

Stoaty said:

Note to moderator: how about moving this to the "future batteries" thread. We don't need a separate thread for every type of battery that might conceivably come to fruition at some point in the future.

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Weird, I could swear I posted that these types of batteries are already being sold commercially in large quantities. Maybe it should be moved to the "existing batteries that are already being sold commercially and have been proven to work in EV's already" thread. Would that be helpful? I think I'll go start that as a new thread.

ElectricMonkey said:

Stoaty said:

Note to moderator: how about moving this to the "future batteries" thread. We don't need a separate thread for every type of battery that might conceivably come to fruition at some point in the future.

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Weird, I could swear I posted that these types of batteries are already being sold commercially in large quantities. Maybe it should be moved to the "existing batteries that are already being sold commercially and have been proven to work in EV's already" thread. Would that be helpful? I think I'll go start that as a new thread.

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Can you provide a link to where these are commercially available. All I see from all the articles you linked were that they have some out for field trials. Field trials and commercially sold are way different.

palmermd said:

ElectricMonkey said:

Stoaty said:

Note to moderator: how about moving this to the "future batteries" thread. We don't need a separate thread for every type of battery that might conceivably come to fruition at some point in the future.

Click to expand...

Weird, I could swear I posted that these types of batteries are already being sold commercially in large quantities. Maybe it should be moved to the "existing batteries that are already being sold commercially and have been proven to work in EV's already" thread. Would that be helpful? I think I'll go start that as a new thread.

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Can you provide a link to where these are commercially available. All I see from all the articles you linked were that they have some out for field trials. Field trials and commercially sold are way different.

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Sure, I would be happy to.
http://fluidicenergy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and as I posted above, here is a quote from their "About us" section:
"It is the first and only company to commercialize and deliver rechargeable metal-air battery technology in high production volumes for commercial load-shifting applications... Entering into global commercialization in mid-2011 with over 35,000 batteries in operation by mid-2014, the technology is proven to increase reliability and outperform the incumbents in terms of cost, longevity and functionality. " -From that Scottsdale AZ company's "About us" link.

So, Fluidic Energy is selling their commercially available batteries for power grid storage, while Phinergy has demonstrated their Metal Air battery works just fine in an EV.

And, of course, there was the link to Tesla taking out a patent on Metal Air tech, and a friend just emailed me this link, showing that Toyota is developing it's own Metal Air tech:
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/14/toyota-solid-state-batteries-that-leapfrog-li-ion-coming-in-2020/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, what's at stake here, is our range anxiety. We're all going to have to learn to get by without it. No more careful planning. No more arguing over an extra 10 miles. No more having to decide between using the car's climate controls and driving freeway speed.

It's going to be difficult. Very very difficult.

By the way, you do need a modern web browser to view their site. Maybe that's why people aren't seeing that these batteries have been in production since 2011? Or maybe early adopter syndrome has set in, and those of you who have been EV drivers for a few years are convinced that the tech that brings EVs to the masses is still years off. Not sure... but it appears that the tech is there right now, ready to be integrated.

The only remaining question is, HOW DO WE INVEST?

ElectricMonkey said:

Weird, I could swear I posted that these types of batteries are already being sold commercially in large quantities. Maybe it should be moved to the "existing batteries that are already being sold commercially and have been proven to work in EV's already" thread. Would that be helpful? I think I'll go start that as a new thread.

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A startup that is long on claims and short on specifics:

"While the batteries seem to be a good solution for telecommunication towers, it could be a while before the batteries are used in cars. Metal-air batteries are an intriguing technology for cars because they have the potential to store three or four times as much electricity as lithium-ion ones, which could extend vehicle range or make it possible to use smaller, cheaper battery packs. “We’re not anywhere close to that,” Friesen says, although the technology stores significantly more energy than lead-acid batteries.

Large-scale grid storage could also be a challenge. Historically, efficiency has been a problem with metal-air batteries, which can waste nearly half the energy stored in them. Friesen says Fluidic has addressed the problem, but for competitive reasons he wouldn’t give the specific efficiency, other than to say that “our efficiencies are far beyond that of a diesel and lead-acid system.”

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/512206/years-in-the-making-promising-rechargeable-metal-air-batteries-head-to-market/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm still calling this "future battery tech".

Why do I keep seeing posts urging us to "invest" instead of "buy" this supposedly already-available battery? Perhaps a little marketing is at work...?

I remember zinc-air buses being tested in the '90's. You had to replace the zinc panels of course, but if the zinc oxidation issue were trivial I should think it would have been solved, at least in the lab, long before 2011.

Stoaty said:

I'm still calling this "future battery tech".

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I agree. There was nothing there but marketing speak.

Btw. If you wanted to purchase real Aluminum Air batteries for testing:
http://yardney.com/wordpress/aluminum-air/2-85-kwhr-alu-air-cell/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This company has done R&D with the DOD on aluminum-air (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a422531.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false and provided batteries for the first two Mars rovers.

Not quite sure what the per unit costs is but seems a tidy package for a 2.85 kWh battery.

Note to self: people who refer to a 'Gigglefactory', hype new/unproven/non-mass-produced batteries and are over[t]ly concerned with investsing are likely short Tesla or have another ulterior motive.

I'm pretty sure Tesla is aware of what's out there and keeping their ear to the ground, as it were. And I highly suspect that Al-air batteries are not superior to their own, for any number of reasons. (e.g., Don't Al-air batteries consume the aluminum?)

mbender said:

I'm pretty sure Tesla is aware of what's out there and keeping their ear to the ground, as it were. And I highly suspect that Al-air batteries are not superior to their own, for any number of reasons. (e.g., Don't Al-air batteries consume the aluminum?)

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Yeah, Aluminum-air batteries are only good as a 500+ mile range extender (depending on # of cells used). They slowly dissolve the plates and consume water. In the short term they're a clean alternative to using a fossil fuel range extender... depending on the costs for an Al-air pack.

bluedream42 said:

Btw. If you wanted to purchase real Aluminum Air batteries for testing

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2.84 kWh at a 34 hour rate. So 1/34 C discharge. Max continuous is 3.5 amps, peak is 5 at 24V.

The leaf pack is ~250 Amps discharge and 125 Amps charge peak for a 65Ah pack. Almost 4C discharge, 2C charge.

Sounds like they have a little problem with high impedance.

Yes, earlier test vehicles with aluminum/air batteries used a second, different pack with a higher discharge rate for accelerating briskly. I'm not sure if the buses do, though.