Lower cost, lower kW DC chargers coming?

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edatoakrun

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
5,222
Location
Shasta County, North California
But not any that I've seen for CHAdeMO, yet...

I've be looking forward to lower-kW DC since I live in an region where (other than on the I-5 corridor) there will probably not be enough BEV/BEVx/PHEV traffic to support ~50 kW (or higher) multi-charger stations for many years to come.

In low traffic areas, the kW output of DC chargers will probably be determined largely by the existing infrastructure, whatever the store/restaurant that wants to encourage BEV/PHEV stops can install at relatively low cost.

Give Bosch/BMW credit where due, in realizing that lower-than ~50kW fast charging has a lot going for it, particularly at this lower price point:

BMW of North America has launched its own DC fast charger. A joint development between BMW and Bosch, the BMW i DC Fast Charger can charge an i3 to 80 percent in 30 minutes. It’s about half the size of most DC chargers (31x19x12 inches), weighs around 100 pounds, and can be mounted on a wall, a first for DC fast chargers.

Beemer’s box also has a comparatively low price tag – $6,548 for authorized BMW partners.

The company decided to go with a 24 kW charging rate “because it’s easier to install, it’s lighter and on the charging time for the i3 it doesn’t make much of a difference,”...

I hope Bosch will bring a CHAdeMO model out soon, though we might not see it at ~the same (BMW subsidized?) price.

And in case you missed it, ABB announced a few months back:

...Next step for ABB is to move DC fast chargers from public domain to homes. First will be in China with DC wallbox with 10 or 20 kW power for Denza EV customers.

More details on that system (in partnership with Denza) can be found here.

http://insideevs.com/denza-opens-new-chapter-ev-charging-dc-wallbox/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We believe that a similar device will sooner or later will come to Europe and North America and when this happen this could be first such charger on the market ever...

http://insideevs.com/1500-abb-dc-chargers-installed-dc-wallbox-comming/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While I expect DC charge stations will eventually replace AC for homes as well as public sites, I hope ABB and others have the foresight to see there will be a significant market for low cost public DC in the USA very soon.
 
Exactly what I was hoping for. I still use L1 for everything, but I am holding off for a low cost DCQC in the 20KW+ area for the home. The only time I need to fill up fast, I need to fill up very very fast.
 
2k1Toaster said:
Exactly what I was hoping for. I still use L1 for everything, but I am holding off for a low cost DCQC in the 20KW+ area for the home. The only time I need to fill up fast, I need to fill up very very fast.

Well, I doubt many will find need to charge that fast at home, especially if there is a much faster ~50k public station en route, wherever they want to travel.

The point is, it's really sort of silly to have the charger integral to the vehicle in the first place.

Sooner or later, I expect all BEVs will lose the AC ports, and you will just buy whatever DC kW level charger that is appropriate to your home or public charge site.

Until then though, I'm looking for a ~10 kW suitcase charger I can use at home, and throw in the trunk for longer trips.
 
2k1Toaster said:
Exactly what I was hoping for. I still use L1 for everything, but I am holding off for a low cost DCQC in the 20KW+ area for the home. The only time I need to fill up fast, I need to fill up very very fast.
Not likely to happen soon, simply because of the service your house has.
While not everyone will be in the same boat, you would likely need a minimum of 250A service to your house. Most homes are wired for 100A, with larger/newer homes having 200A. You might be able to get by on 200A, but the way things are hooked up, few breaker panels would support it.

The primary reason JuiceBox only supports 15kW is the same limitation. For 20kW DC, you need ~30kW AC delivered (-20% for 80% rating, -10% for efficiency). At 240V, this would be 125A, just for the charging station. With an average of 100A for everything else (Electric dryers, ovens, and cooktops take a lot of power), you're well over the 200A service most houses would likely max out with.

It's possible, just not likely enough for a company to invest into a solution.
 
mctom987 said:
2k1Toaster said:
Exactly what I was hoping for. I still use L1 for everything, but I am holding off for a low cost DCQC in the 20KW+ area for the home. The only time I need to fill up fast, I need to fill up very very fast.
Not likely to happen soon, simply because of the service your house has.
While not everyone will be in the same boat, you would likely need a minimum of 250A service to your house. Most homes are wired for 100A, with larger/newer homes having 200A. You might be able to get by on 200A, but the way things are hooked up, few breaker panels would support it.

The primary reason JuiceBox only supports 15kW is the same limitation. For 20kW DC, you need ~30kW AC delivered (-20% for 80% rating, -10% for efficiency). At 240V, this would be 125A, just for the charging station. With an average of 100A for everything else (Electric dryers, ovens, and cooktops take a lot of power), you're well over the 200A service most houses would likely max out with.

It's possible, just not likely enough for a company to invest into a solution.

I am wired for 250A and my utility company is required to give me service at the panel for what I request if I have a reason, at their cost. 250A is the highest the underground wire from the local sub to my panel can carry. If I wanted 480v 3 phase, they will give it to me if I ask and have a reason. At least around here, they are required to. Anything from substation to the electrical meter is their property and their problem. If I want a higher service, they will upgrade that. From the meter onwards, is all my problem and my cost.

House was built in 1970's too.
 
2k1Toaster said:
I am wired for 250A and my utility company is required to give me service at the panel for what I request if I have a reason, at their cost.

Where do you live (might want to update your profile)? That's definitely NOT common amongst the masses...
 
Stanton said:
2k1Toaster said:
I am wired for 250A and my utility company is required to give me service at the panel for what I request if I have a reason, at their cost.

Where do you live (might want to update your profile)? That's definitely NOT common amongst the masses...

Front Range of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado.

The house's main panel was wired when I bought it for some strange number like 120A. Not 100A, not 150A. I knew that EV's were in my future so I wanted to support my hot-tub 220VAC @ 60A (essentially a small pool!) as well as a dedicated L2 on a 40A and a 80A breaker for a Tesla with dual chargers when the time came. So adding it all up I was in the 200A plus range. Called my utility company and told them I want to upgrade my service to 250A. They sent out a lineman who scoped the underground wires and determined they were rated for 250A. The transformer that fed my house was not rated high enough so they replaced that at their cost. I asked if I wanted to go higher one day, what would the cost be. They told me (in writing) that they are responsible from the grid to the metered side of the electric meter. If anything fails between that, it is not my cost. It anything needs to be upgraded between that, it is not my cost. I also do not "own" the cables under my property. I have areas of my land where I cannot put anything because they are owned by the utility company. Or if I do, the utility company can knock it down to service the underground cables and not put it back up.

They are actually a very reasonable utility company.
 
what would be nice is one that can charge at about 10KW, and plug into a 14-50. it would be nice to carry that thing around for faster charging at RV parks on road trips.
 
johnrhansen said:
what would be nice is one that can charge at about 10KW, and plug into a 14-50. it would be nice to carry that thing around for faster charging at RV parks on road trips.

Both OpenEVSE and JuiceBox should be able to handle that… They both can take a 14-50 input, and output 10kW+

Edit: OpenEVSE by default comes with 30-amp ratings. It takes a couple parts to upgrade it to 50A, but it's still possible, unlike most (or all) commercial solutions.
Edit2: I now realize you may have meant specifically DC charging, as many vehicles (esp. the Leaf) can't charge at 10kW on AC.
 
mctom987 said:
johnrhansen said:
what would be nice is one that can charge at about 10KW, and plug into a 14-50. it would be nice to carry that thing around for faster charging at RV parks on road trips.

Both OpenEVSE and JuiceBox should be able to handle that… They both can take a 14-50 input, and output 10kW+

Edit: OpenEVSE by default comes with 30-amp ratings. It takes a couple parts to upgrade it to 50A, but it's still possible, unlike most (or all) commercial solutions.
Edit2: I now realize you may have meant specifically DC charging, as many vehicles (esp. the Leaf) can't charge at 10kW on AC.

doesn't do much good because the onboard charger only draws 6.3 KW max. To exceed that you need chademo. I carry a 30 amp Bosch power max now on road trips. 6.3 KW is better than the 4.8 KW that my portable evse upgrade puts out.
 
Me too are looking for DC chargers that handles 3x400volts. There are 3x400volt sockets all over this place(Europe), but they are of very little use if going through the internal charger as you only use one phase. No good when traveling.

An affordable DC charger with 3x400v 32A input would be a good thing to have I think as CHAdeMO still are a too rare sight with the limited range of a Leaf.
 
ice said:
Me too are looking for DC chargers that handles 3x400volts. There are 3x400volt sockets all over this place(Europe), but they are of very little use if going through the internal charger as you only use one phase. No good when traveling.

An affordable DC charger with 3x400v 32A input would be a good thing to have I think as CHAdeMO still are a too rare sight with the limited range of a Leaf.
This would be ~22kW, more than enough for a decent charge in a short time. Such a device would be possible, but it's not likely going to be very portable. Take a look at the size of the current Chademo stations: they're huge.
 
Only 12kg:

http://www.brusa.eu/en/products/energy/chargers-400-v/nlg6-fast-charger.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am just wondering how much does it cost.
 
That's actually pretty impressive. Still pretty hefty though. 26lb for US folk.

Without a posted cost, and all of the cables missing (including the massive Chademo), it's hard to really consider this.

At ~1.6x1.1 feet, it's definitely within portability size.

Hell, that's actually a serious contender to replace the default OBC. Would be awesome to be able to charge at max J1772 specs… :D

Even at the full 22kW output, that's ~.9C rate. While not the .3C generally recommended, up to 1C shouldn't have any significant degradation on life. Imagine 0-100% in ~90 minutes.
 
Even limiting to 11kW (3x400v 16A) would be a great hop up from the stock 2.4kW.

Tesla got 11kW chargers which also shows it's doable at a pretty affordable price too. :)
 
ice said:
Even limiting to 11kW (3x400v 16A) would be a great hop up from the stock 2.4kW.

Tesla got 11kW chargers which also shows it's doable at a pretty affordable price too. :)
Just a technicality, it's 3-phase, not 3x. 3x generally means 3 circuits, where 3-phase is a single circuit.
 
johnrhansen said:
Why can't those big chargers use a 50 amp single phase? harmonics?
Power factor, copper, and component costs.
Generally, 3 smaller things is cheaper than 1 larger one. Not the retail value, the material costs.
Also, the utility companies only provide so much power on a single phase. Any larger requirements, they will force you to use 3-phase, and require >0.90PF, or heavily penalize you.

As a business, when you have an option that's cheaper to use, and cheaper to buy, it's a no-brainer.
 
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