battery life anxioty

So - I really want a leaf. The range doesn't bother me at all because I don't come close to driving more than 90 miles a day. What does bother me is that the battery deteriorates to nothing eventually. And, spending a hundred bucks a month for an extended battery warranty sounds very unappetizing. That's essentially my gas bill for the year, which defeats the purpose of driving an electric vehicle. That being said, does anyone know the answer to these questions?

1. In a moderate climate (North West Arkansas), how long does it take on average for the battery life to go below 50%?
2. If the battery does die, how much does it cost to have it replaced with a new one?

90 miles/day? On 1 charge? You'd need to average a better 4.3 miles/kwh to achieve that which could be achieved at a bit under 55 mph w/o HVAC on level ground per http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Back before we knew the EPA range rating of the '13 Leaf (which turned out to be 75 miles), we knew the EPA range of the '11 and '12 and I asked a question that got turned into a poll: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The $100/mo "steal your battery" lease program (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false is dead. It's been replaced by a $5500 replacement program at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As for "die", well, the HV battery is warranted for 8 years/100K mile but that's not the capacity warranty. If the battery were to totally "die" and be unable to allow the vehicle to move, it'd be covered by that.

A 5 year/60K mile capacity warranty was added later: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

You can download warranty booklets for any recent Nissans at https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/navigation/manualsGuide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Back to #1, we don't know. Depends on the climate and many other factors. Someone here has put together an aging model at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. We also don't know how the new "hot"/"lizard" battery in the '15 Leafs degrades over time vs. previous ones.

edit: Fixed the 1st URL.

cwerdna said:

Back to #1, we don't know. Depends on the climate and many other factors. Someone here has put together an aging model at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. We also don't know how the new "hot"/"lizard" battery in the '15 Leafs degrades over time vs. previous ones.

Click to expand...

A couple of comments:

--the Battery Aging Model (valid only for 2011-2012 Leafs) has been fairly accurate so far, and suggests that in Pacific Northwest the Leaf will last about 100,000 miles before reaching 70% remaining battery capacity

--Nissan claims that the Lizard battery will bring the capacity retention in hot areas up to that in cooler areas

If both of these hold true (and that is a very big if), you may get about 100,000 miles on your Leaf before losing 30% of your battery capacity. Then again, you may not.

You guys rock. It sounds like you really know your stuff.

Part of it comes from years of dealing with this crap! :lol:

nikotromus11 said:

You guys rock. It sounds like you really know your stuff.

Click to expand...

Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

From your OP, I'm guessing you want to buy instead of lease.... right? I'm leasing (only on a 2 year). I've never leased a car before (only bought new in the past) and am not a huge fan of leasing, in general. But, for my situation (living, work, charging, location, etc.) and for what I expect in terms of evolutionary improvements in BEVs, it was probably the right choice for me.

I updated my profile...

On my average every day use of my vehicles, which is probably 350 days out of the year, I drive no more 35 miles. This would be a second vehicle, as I plan on keeping my gas powered one for longer trips. All of it is city driving. I don't have any charging stations at work.

Ryan

^^^
Thanks! Wow. Only driving 35 miles or less a day and it's all city? The Leaf would definitely still be usable for your trips even after a significant amount of degradation. And yeah, you wouldn't need to charge at work. L1 (120 volt) charging at home should be sufficient.

BTW, I had an incorrect URL in the original reply. I'd meant to point to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

nikotromus11 said:

I updated my profile...

On my average every day use of my vehicles, which is probably 350 days out of the year, I drive no more 35 miles. This would be a second vehicle, as I plan on keeping my gas powered one for longer trips. All of it is city driving. I don't have any charging stations at work.

Ryan

Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum, nikotromus11. You'll find a wealth of information here, but you sometimes have to separate the facts from the conjecture. So...you're from Bentonville AR., eh? Nice area. We almost decided to move there after retirement; but couldn't bear to leave the beautiful SAN Weather.

FWIW: the cure for your concern about the battery is to LEASE the vehicle and not buy it. when you lease the the battery issue is no longer your problem,it becomes nissan's issue to deal with.
YMMV

apvbguy said:

FWIW: the cure for your concern about the battery is to LEASE the vehicle and not buy it. when you lease the the battery issue is no longer your problem,it becomes nissan's issue to deal with.
YMMV

Click to expand...

Not really. It becomes the problem of the person who buys it from the lease company.

Most of the lease returns wind up at auction...

bbrowncods said:

Not really. It becomes the problem of the person who buys it from the lease company.

Click to expand...

niko...
#1 how long to die.... Nissan says the battery has reached end of life at 70% capacity. The loss of the first capacity bar on the right is around 15% capacity loss and each remaining bar is 7.5 %.

I'm in KC so we have similar weather to AR. I got my Leaf in Jun of 2012. I've got just over 26k miles and still have all 12 capacity bars. I've been expecting to loose the first one any day now but this summer has been so mild that I think I'm still good for longer than anticipated. This is both great and miserable. The 5/60 capacity warranty would be great to get a new battery near the 5 year mark but I just don't see that happening. The estimates on the degradation chart put a KC battery at 70% capacity between 7-9 years. The biggest key to keeping the battery good is keeping it cool and out of the sun. So if you have covered parking you're really golden.

I hit 7 temp bars on the battery quite a few times during that first summer (2012) when we had 20-30 days of 95-110*F temps. I'm not sure I've hit 7 temp bars since then. These last two summers, especially this one, have been so mild that the battery has been quite happy. Last summer I was running 6 battery temp bars pretty much 24x7 even when parking in the air conditioned garage. This year the temps have been so low I actually parked outside because it was cooler than in the garage.

Unfortunately it really depends on how your summer's go as to how affected the battery is going to be. Using the battery degradation model the difference between Little Rock and KC is so minimal that it makes no difference.

Having said all that, I'd lease. This is both to cover battery concerns but also because the technology is changing so fast that I makes good sense. I wish I'd leased.

A small correction: The first bar is 15% and all subsequent bars are 6.25%...

ksnogas2112 said:

#1 how long to die.... Nissan says the battery has reached end of life at 70% capacity. The loss of the first capacity bar on the right is around 15% capacity loss and each remaining bar is 7.5 %.

Click to expand...

bbrowncods said:

apvbguy said:

FWIW: the cure for your concern about the battery is to LEASE the vehicle and not buy it. when you lease the the battery issue is no longer your problem,it becomes nissan's issue to deal with.
YMMV

Click to expand...

Not really. It becomes the problem of the person who buys it from the lease company.

Click to expand...

regardless of whom the new owner since at the end of the lease term you no longer have to deal with massive degradation issues

Bentonville is fantastic. No crime, jobs everywhere, great climate, lots of things to do and a super low cost of living. I've lived in a lot of places and don't ever want to move again.

I would REALLY have anxiety if I went the leasing route. I could just envision a tear drop falling from Dave Ramsey's face as I picture myself signing the contract! ;-)

With a 5/60 warranty on the battery, and 6k to replace it, my anxiety has definitely been quelled. I took it out for a test drive on Sunday and really liked the pickup and the roominess. Now it's all about the budget and whether to buy new or used.

You guys have been great. Thanks again.

Ryan

nikotromus11 said:

I would REALLY have anxiety if I went the leasing route. I could just envision a tear drop falling from Dave Ramsey's face as I picture myself signing the contract! ;-)

Click to expand...

Dave Ramsey understands human psychology more than some give him credit for. His approach has worked well for us. I can easily understand why many choose to lease the LEAF, but I'm glad we bought ours (and owe nothing on it). Now, someone just needs to get Dave Ramsey to try driving a Tesla, since we know he enjoys luxury cars. ;-)

You should definitely stick to your budget. While a brand new 2015 model could give you faster charging at 240 V, more range, and possibly a longer lasting battery, it's hard to say whether that's worth the premium over buying a used LEAF. I'm thinking a 2015 would be a "want", not a "need", whereas a 2011 would get you around town just fine.

There will be used 2013 models for sale next year, with their extra features, including 80% charge option.