2013 LEAF, Can it charge at 7.2k rates?

Just a quick question, any 2013 LEAF owners seeing higher than 6.6k charge rates? I am on the return leg of a 460 mile round trip and I have noticed while charging on my trip, my 2013 LEAF charges much faster than the times calculated by the car when connected to some 6.6k Level 2 charge stations.

This is not always the case. Some Level 2 stations charge at exactly the 6.6k rate and finishes extremely close to the calculated finish time. BUT, almost every time I connect to the Nissan branded Aerovironment Level 2 stations, my 2013 LEAF finishes a lot sooner than calculated. So this leads me to believe that the 2013 models may possibly charge at 7.2k.

Anyone else see this? Is the LEAF just not accurately calculating the charge time? I know that in the J1772 spec the stations can offer much higher charge rates than 6.6k. But I didn't think the LEAF could use the higher rates.


Mike R

2 different rates are related the the voltage the evse is connected to

most commercial locations supply 208V to the evse

most residential supply 240V to the evse resulting in a slightly faster charge rate

not sure about the wattage but thats why ou are seeing 2 different rates at different evse locations

kmp647 said:

2 different rates are related the the voltage the evse is connected to

most commercial locations supply 208V to the evse

most residential supply 240V to the evse resulting in a slightly faster charge rate

not sure about the wattage but thats why ou are seeing 2 different rates at different evse locations

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Great explanation.
Thanks.

Just a little note to clarify a common misconception. The 2013 Leaf actually only charges at a 6.0 Kw rate. That is the output of the charger to the battery. The 2011 and 2012 charge at a rate of 3.3 Kw to the battery. For 2013, Nissan changed from rating the charger by input rather than output, resulting in the 6.6 Kw claim (the charger is not 100% efficient)... The skeptic in me would say that did it to make it sound more impressive...

mrench01 said:

Just a quick question, any 2013 LEAF owners seeing higher than 6.6k charge rates? I am on the return leg of a 460 mile round trip and I have noticed while charging on my trip, my 2013 LEAF charges much faster than the times calculated by the car when connected to some 6.6k Level 2 charge stations.

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TomT said:

Just a little note to clarify a common misconception. The 2013 Leaf actually only charges at a 6.0 Kw rate. That is the output of the charger to the battery. The 2011 and 2012 charge at a rate of 3.3 Kw to the battery. For 2013, Nissan changed from rating the charger by input rather than output, resulting in the 6.6 Kw claim (the charger is not 100% efficient)... The skeptic in me would say that did it to make it sound more impressive...

mrench01 said:

Just a quick question, any 2013 LEAF owners seeing higher than 6.6k charge rates? I am on the return leg of a 460 mile round trip and I have noticed while charging on my trip, my 2013 LEAF charges much faster than the times calculated by the car when connected to some 6.6k Level 2 charge stations.

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Actually it is not a 6.6kw input, the input is unlimited via the EVSE. IMO it is very clear why Nissan played games with the numbers, it is a competitive marketing ploy. If the Focus lists a 6.6kw charger (actual or not) the average consumer thinks that 6kw is inferior. Chargers are not rated by their KW input (voltage yes) this is irrelevant as long as it is not below the output and efficiency loss, it seems to me that Nissan is possibly engaging in a fine line of false advertising and using public ignorance to their advantage. Not that it is a huge deal to most but literally and technically it is not a 6.6kw charger unless:

It truly is a 6.6kw charger and Nissan is restricting the output via firmware, which is still really false advertising as the capability is not available to the user of the product. Certainly I can plug in to a 12kw EVSE and that IS the input to the charger so I suppose I can call it a 12kw charger just as easily as I can call it a 6.6 :roll: : . I would like to hear Nissan's explanation of how they get these interesting specs. Is there some magic moment the US charger puts out 6.6kw when we are not looking? It seems very straight forward to me. Since they only supply a 1.4kw cord to the car why don't they call it a 1.4kw charger since that is the factory input method :lol: Wait, that is not to their marketing advantage.

OK, I should have said 6.6 KW MAXIMUM input... But as you said, it is for marketing not technical reasons, and that is the crux of the matter...

EVDRIVER said:

Actually it is not a 6.6kw input, the input is unlimited via the EVSE.

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TomT said:

OK, I should have said 6.6 KW MAXIMUM input... But as you said, it is for marketing not technical reasons, and that is the crux of the matter...

EVDRIVER said:

Actually it is not a 6.6kw input, the input is unlimited via the EVSE.

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So the question is is it ok to list incorrect specs? The pack on the LEAF is capable of more than 80kw to the motor so can they use the pack rating as the motor rating? Of course not, and that would be scrutinized more.

Does Victor list Brusa output specs based on the true output of the charger. Of course because buyers would flip out if a 3.3kw charger could only put out 3kw max or less, particularly at the price per kw. Just food for thought and I think Nissan needs to correct or explain this. What is the margin of acceptable deviation, 10%, 30%? I bet this is the only spec on the car that lists no variation range. My guess is this is a foolish mistake by a marketing person but I would think they are very aware of it by now and it is a key selling feature of the car.

No, but it seems to be a very common thing to do in the automotive world... Kind of like the original 100 mile range claim...

EVDRIVER said:

So the question is is it ok to list incorrect specs? The pack on the LEAF is capable of more than 80kw to the motor so can they use the pack rating as the motor rating? Of course not, and that would be scrutinized more.

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There was a disclaimer on that and there is implied variation as well. This one is very clear cut. Perhaps a good post to go unanswered on Facebook or one for the script readers at Nissan CS.

EVDRIVER said:

I would like to hear Nissan's explanation of how they get these interesting specs. Is there some magic moment the US charger puts out 6.6kw when we are not looking?

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I agree it is confusing, and I agree that it may have been a marketing decision, but it isn't as if they are hiding or fudging the specs. On that they have been very clear. See the 2013 Nissan LEAF Press Kit. Click "Specs" and right near the top you will see

3.6 kW onboard charger (3.3 kW output)
Charging time (est.) 220V ~ 7 hrs
110V 21 hrs
DC Fast Charge 30 min to 80%

6.6 kW onboard charger (6.0 kW output)
Charging time (est.) 220V ~ 4 hrs
110V 21 hrs
DC Fast Charge 30 min to 80%

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Now, we can quibble about their misperception that the US has 110v and 220v, even though it's been 120v and 240v for nearly a century, but that's another (though related) issue.

Ray

I could be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that the OBC is limited to a maximum of 28A in 2013 LEAF. That's 6.72 kW power draw from the wall at 240V and 5.82 kW at 208V.

surfingslovak said:

I could be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that the OBC is limited to a maximum of 28A in 2013 LEAF. That's 6.72 kW power draw from the wall at 240V and 5.82 kW at 208V.

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Well, if we believe the numbers I just quoted, 6600/220 is a nice exact 30A, and 30A at 240v would be 7.2kW.

Ray

planet4ever said:

surfingslovak said:

I could be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that the OBC is limited to a maximum of 28A in 2013 LEAF. That's 6.72 kW power draw from the wall at 240V and 5.82 kW at 208V.

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Well, if we believe the numbers I just quoted, 6600/220 is a nice exact 30A, and 30A at 240v would be 7.2kW.

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Ray, are those numbers derived from observation or a paper spec? Based on what I've seem, I'm under the impression that 28 amps is the limit, but perhaps someone can prove otherwise.

surfingslovak said:

planet4ever said:

surfingslovak said:

I could be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that the OBC is limited to a maximum of 28A in 2013 LEAF. That's 6.72 kW power draw from the wall at 240V and 5.82 kW at 208V.

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Well, if we believe the numbers I just quoted, 6600/220 is a nice exact 30A, and 30A at 240v would be 7.2kW.

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Ray, are those numbers derived from observation or a paper spec? Based on what I've seem, I'm under the impression that 28 amps is the limit, but perhaps someone can prove otherwise.

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Not from observation, "just" from an official Nissan electronic spec on a Nissan website (nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa), as I linked on the previous page of this thread. I have a similar question about the 28A you referred to. Is that from observation, or just from people noting that 6600/240 = 27.5A, or 28A when rounded?

Please note that I, like others, have been quoting 27.5A based on that calculation. I am only just now beginning to question it.

Ray

P.S. I just checked. Whois says that nissannews.com is owned by Nissan North America, Inc.

planet4ever said:

Please note that I, like others, have been quoting 27.5A based on that calculation. I am only just now beginning to question.

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Yes, that's what I remember also. I had a lot of problems with the OBC in my ActiveE, which prompted me to collect empirical data from various charging stations. I should probably invest in a clamp-based current meter, but I just didn't feel strongly enough about the issue. That said, I'm starting to believe that the ActiveE might be limited to 27 amps, although the spec sheet says "7.2kW". This is based on the power draw observed during numerous charging sessions. The OBC was replaced twice because of the issues I reported to BMW. Recently, I observed that the 2013 LEAF was drawing about 230 Watt more from the wall than my ActiveE, which was plugged in at the same location. I asked a friend for a similar test with his 2013 LEAF, and we got the same results. This leads me to believe that the LEAF consistently draws one amp more that the ActiveE.

surfingslovak said:

I could be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that the OBC is limited to a maximum of 28A in 2013 LEAF. That's 6.72 kW power draw from the wall at 240V and 5.82 kW at 208V.

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That's interesting, particularly considering that the OBC in the 2011/2012 LEAF is limited to 18A (input to the EVSE) and 3740W. If we assume the 2013 charger is limited to 6.6 kW, but only 28A, then that would explain the big drop in power OP is seeing when charging from a 208VAC EVSE.

Put another way, the 2013 (with 6.6kW charger) would draw 1.75 times the power from the wall at 240VAC as a 2011/2012 would, but would only draw 1.55 times as much at 208VAC. This would be due to the fact that the current limit in the 2011/2012 only kicks in at 208VAC and below. If the current limit in the 2013 kicks in at a higher voltage, then you would see the type of slowdown OP is reporting when charging from 208V.

It is beyond me why Nissan would choose to put in a current limit of 28A versus the 32A which would allow the user to take full advantage of most 7.2kW EVSEs. Who knows, perhaps the current limit IS 32A but they still have a 6.6kW limit. That would align better with what is observed in the 2011/2012s since the current limit would kick in below about 206VAC. That would keep 208VAC and 240VAC charging rates consistent as they are in the older LEAFs, but it would leave us with no explanation for what OP has observed.

RegGuheert said:

It is beyond me why Nissan would choose to put in a current limit of 28A versus the 32A which would allow the user to take full advantage of most 7.2kW EVSEs. Who knows, perhaps the current limit IS 32A but they still have a 6.6kW limit.

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The original J1772 limit was 30 amps. It only went above that because of Tesla, which means that Japan might not really recognize that. Virtually all of the legacy (Avcon, etc) are at 30 amps, as are 98% of public charge stations. There were not and are not 32 amps. The UL listings of Yazaki plugs is for 30 amps.

So,

200 volts in Japan * 30 amps = 6.0kW
240 volts in USA * 30 amps = 7.2kW

I only started this thread because over the past week I drove from Saint Clair Shores Michigan to Dayton / Beavercreek Ohio and back. I made stops to charge along the way at mostly Nissan dealers with the Aerovironment Nissan branded Level 2 stations. I was trying to understand how my LEAF would calculate 4hr charge time to full at 6.6k (what the dashboard display stated) and the actual time to charge was more like 2hr 40min when connected to the Nissan Dealers charge station.

The 2 stations I connected to on this trip that weren't Nissan units were a GE WattStation in Bowling Green Ohio. That station finished in exactly the time stated on my LEAF's dashboard at the 6.6k rate. And I connected to a ChargePoint station with the same result.

For whatever reason it seems the Nissan Aerovironment units at the dealerships are charging my 2013 LEAF faster then the gauge on the dashboard is calculating. I have seen this on PEP Level 2 stations and the Bosch Power Max 30a Level 2. Just wondering what is going on. Getting charged sooner is nice but I was a little worried that something may be wrong.

Mike R

It's a 240 volt (or maybe 250 volt) versus 200-208 volt issue.

TonyWilliams said:

The original J1772 limit was 30 amps. It only went above that because of Tesla, which means that Japan might not really recognize that. Virtually all of the legacy (Avcon, etc) are at 30 amps, as are 98% of public charge stations. There were not and are not 32 amps. The UL listings of Yazaki plugs is for 30 amps.

So,

200 volts in Japan * 30 amps = 6.0kW
240 volts in USA * 30 amps = 7.2kW

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O.K. Thanks!

It seems to me the IEEE left two Amps on the table since NEC allows 80% of the current rating of the cable, which for 8 AWG would be 32A. Oh, well.

I charge my 2013 Leaf daily at work with a Clipper Creek CS-40 EVSE and routinely charge much faster than what the dashboard tells me it will take. I get about 30% charge for every hour plugged in, so I usually charge for 2 hours and never need to go over 3. Doing the math, it looks like I am getting 7.2kW (7.2/24 = 30%)

Update 7/21/2014: I just clocked a 2.5 hour (150 minute) charge. I got an 80% charge (from 9% to 89%). That works out at 32% per hour. I suppose it could be that my battery capacity no longer tops out at 24 kW, though my first annual maintenance check a couple months ago gave me 5 stars in all battery tests.