Any Chademo adaptor plug for SAE Combo plug charger?

hyperlexis · Jan 6, 2013

Please forgive me as this is my first post and am not sure if this is the best section to place this thread into.

However, my question is twofold. I am seriously looking at purchasing a Leaf and test drove one at my local dealer yesterday. The financial incentives from the dealer and from tax credits were shocking -- virtually half the price of the vehicle. Almost too good to pass up. Unfortunately, I have serious concerns about charging. Because I live in a large highrise condo filled with a**holes, charging in my garage may be a difficult proposition. A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity.... Illinois has a bill requiring condos offer charging for owners, however the bill is now back in committee and who knows if it will ever pass.

So a quick charge port is critical. We have a handful of public QC chargers here in the city, including one at a Whole Foods near my home. However the Leaf's QC port is only offered on the most expensive SL model, not the SV even as an option.

So:
1.) Can one retrofit a QC L3 port onto a Leaf that does not have one from the factory. (It seems no).

2.) Will Nissan, in the future, retrofit, or offer some kind of adapter once the SAE combo plug comes into use? No one has been clear on this -- whether the Chademo plug can be adapted to the new SAE style chargers that one assumes will eventually be installed for public use. Tesla told me their sedan will come with adaptor plugs -- so will the Leaf as well?

3.) Will the new, cheaper 2013 "S" base model Leaf coming out include a QC port either standard (hopefully!) or as an option?

Thanks!

walterbays · Jan 6, 2013

The question is when will there be production quantities of ANY vehicle able to use the SAE Combo plug, aka the Frankenplug? http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=247516#p247516. None are known. So if your business installed a Frankenplug charger today it might be years before the first car used it, if ever. A few California "compliance cars" will use it, notably the GM Spark. BMW seems most likely to first ship production quantities of SAE capable cars, but they have not announced anything yet.

[Edit]: GM could always change course and decide the Spark would be a good business that would complement rather than compete with Volt, and begin full scale production of it.

garygid · Jan 6, 2013

I suspect the answers are No, No, No.

The socket and plug are not the real problem.
The two systems use completely different control
and communication systems and protocols.

Boomer23 · Jan 6, 2013

hyperlexis said:
Please forgive me as this is my first post and am not sure if this is the best section to place this thread into.

However, my question is twofold. I am seriously looking at purchasing a Leaf and test drove one at my local dealer yesterday. The financial incentives from the dealer and from tax credits were shocking -- virtually half the price of the vehicle. Almost too good to pass up. Unfortunately, I have serious concerns about charging. Because I live in a large highrise condo filled with a**holes, charging in my garage may be a difficult proposition. A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity.... Illinois has a bill requiring condos offer charging for owners, however the bill is now back in committee and who knows if it will ever pass.

So a quick charge port is critical. We have a handful of public QC chargers here in the city, including one at a Whole Foods near my home. However the Leaf's QC port is only offered on the most expensive SL model, not the SV even as an option.

So:
1.) Can one retrofit a QC L3 port onto a Leaf that does not have one from the factory. (It seems no).

2.) Will Nissan, in the future, retrofit, or offer some kind of adapter once the SAE combo plug comes into use? No one has been clear on this -- whether the Chademo plug can be adapted to the new SAE style chargers that one assumes will eventually be installed for public use. Tesla told me their sedan will come with adaptor plugs -- so will the Leaf as well?

3.) Will the new, cheaper 2013 "S" base model Leaf coming out include a QC port either standard (hopefully!) or as an option?

Thanks!

Welcome. Good to hear that you're motivated to go electric drive and that you're not allowing your multi-family living situation stop you (sorry about the a**holes).

1) no retrofit is feasible. There is too much cost and complexity in the high voltage cabling, the CHAdeMO receptacle and supporting hardware and software.

2) The consensus is that there are enough differences in software and power electronics between the SAE and the CHAdeMO protocols that an adapter is unlikely. More likely is that if the SAE standard spawns enough EVs of that persuasion, some future DC quick chargers will have both types of plug, with internal power electronics and software to match each. Retrofits of existing CHAdeMO units are anybody's guess.

3) this isn't yet known for sure for the US 2013 models, but we're a very short time from the release of those specs. Watch this forum for details as soon as they're known. Watch also the Townhall Phoenix thread for possible leaked info.

hyperlexis · Jan 6, 2013

walterbays said:
The question is when will there be production quantities of ANY vehicle able to use the SAE Combo plug, aka the Frankenplug? http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=247516#p247516. None are known. So if your business installed a Frankenplug charger today it might be years before the first car used it, if ever. A few California "compliance cars" will use it, notably the GM Spark. BMW seems most likely to first ship production quantities of SAE capable cars, but they have not announced anything yet.

[Edit]: GM could always change course and decide the Spark would be a good business that would complement rather than compete with Volt, and begin full scale production of it.

Well, assuming that given the committment SAE has invested in its new combo plug, GM, as well as others, it would be naive to think the SAE version would be abandoned as a US standard at this point.

That said, is it even, technology-wise, possible to create an adaptor plug to place over a Chademo plug that would allow one to plug in a male SAE combo charging plug? Such as when one travels overseas and uses an adaptor plug in an electrical outlet?

And, further, will Nissan then offer such an adaptor for the US market, or even retrofit the entire plug altogether for existing owners? Has Nissan commented on the topic at all? Sooner or later they must.

The closest analogy I can think of is leaded gas. I remember that conversion period. So if I know leaded gas is being phased out, I would think twice about buying a car that required leaded for the engine valves. I'd go with another model. Betamax may be another analogous example.

Nissan owes it to its early adopters and potential buyers to explain what will happen if the SAE combo standard supplants the Chademo system. -- As soon as possible. I assume Nissan will step up to the plate and offer to retrofit the cars or provide adaptors, but without a clear communication, I would be concerned, especially as a potential buyer.

cwerdna · Jan 6, 2013

hyperlexis said:
Well, assuming that given the committment SAE has invested in its new combo plug, GM, as well as others, it would be naive to think the SAE version would be abandoned as a US standard at this point.

Commitment? Take a look at the latest at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=247516#p247516" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11098" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.hybridcars.com/november-2012-dashboard-65420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for sales numbers to get an idea of how well CA compliance cars might sell...

hyperlexis · Jan 6, 2013

Boomer23 said:
hyperlexis said:

Please forgive me as this is my first post and am not sure if this is the best section to place this thread into.

However, my question is twofold. I am seriously looking at purchasing a Leaf and test drove one at my local dealer yesterday. The financial incentives from the dealer and from tax credits were shocking -- virtually half the price of the vehicle. Almost too good to pass up. Unfortunately, I have serious concerns about charging. Because I live in a large highrise condo filled with a**holes, charging in my garage may be a difficult proposition. A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity.... Illinois has a bill requiring condos offer charging for owners, however the bill is now back in committee and who knows if it will ever pass.

So a quick charge port is critical. We have a handful of public QC chargers here in the city, including one at a Whole Foods near my home. However the Leaf's QC port is only offered on the most expensive SL model, not the SV even as an option.

So:
1.) Can one retrofit a QC L3 port onto a Leaf that does not have one from the factory. (It seems no).

2.) Will Nissan, in the future, retrofit, or offer some kind of adapter once the SAE combo plug comes into use? No one has been clear on this -- whether the Chademo plug can be adapted to the new SAE style chargers that one assumes will eventually be installed for public use. Tesla told me their sedan will come with adaptor plugs -- so will the Leaf as well?

3.) Will the new, cheaper 2013 "S" base model Leaf coming out include a QC port either standard (hopefully!) or as an option?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Welcome. Good to hear that you're motivated to go electric drive and that you're not allowing your multi-family living situation stop you (sorry about the a**holes).

1) no retrofit is feasible. There is too much cost and complexity in the high voltage cabling, the CHAdeMO receptacle and supporting hardware and software.

2) The consensus is that there are enough differences in software and power electronics between the SAE and the CHAdeMO protocols that an adapter is unlikely. More likely is that if the SAE standard spawns enough EVs of that persuasion, some future DC quick chargers will have both types of plug, with internal power electronics and software to match each. Retrofits of existing CHAdeMO units are anybody's guess.

3) this isn't yet known for sure for the US 2013 models, but we're a very short time from the release of those specs. Watch this forum for details as soon as they're known. Watch also the Townhall Phoenix thread for possible leaked info.

Thanks! Definitely will be looking for details on the new 2013 models, especially the S version.

I appreciate the info on the technical matters. Hopefully Nissan will offer some clarity as soon as possible.

evnow · Jan 6, 2013

hyperlexis said:
Well, assuming that given the committment SAE has invested in its new combo plug, GM, as well as others, it would be naive to think the SAE version would be abandoned as a US standard at this point.

I don't think SAE will abandon its US std. The question is, who is putting the chargers on the ground - and who are selling the cars.

GM has Spark EV coming out soon. But, that will only sell a thousand or so per year. That leaves BMW i3. We don't know how well that car will really sell - or how many would get just BEV with SAE charger instead of the REx option.

So, no cars & no chargers. SAE will ofcourse not abandon the std :lol:

TonyWilliams · Jan 6, 2013

evnow said:
So, no cars & no chargers. SAE will ofcourse not abandon the std :lol:

The fundamentals issues are:

1. CHAdeMO has almost two thousand units up and running world wide. That number will like increase significantly in 2013.

2. SAE only recently voted for their "Frankenplug" standard, many YEARS behind CHAdeMO. There has been no durability tests of any stature, no production, no significant volume of cars to be produced in the coming year or two that will use the Frankenplug. Unlike CHAdeMO, GM has actually hired consultants and PR folks to "sell" this new "standard". CHAdeMO didn't have to resort to that; the world just cranks out the equipment and compatible cars.

3. There is no "national" standard in the sense that anybody is required to install a Frankenplug station over a CHAdeMO. Granted, folks at GM are working hard to use regulations in place of investment in wide scale EV production. The de facto standard is CHAdeMO and Tesla (which uses a loose iteration of Frankenplug).

4. We are only months away from two production cars, GM Spark (extremely limited for California compliance... maybe 2500 units, or 5% of LEAF production so far) and BMW i3 (the only serious effort at an EV that is Frankenplug compliant). When those two cars arrive, I predict that there will not be a single public Frankenplug available for them to plug into anywhere in the world.

5. GM, the puppet masters behind the Frankenplug, made sure it would not be compliant with CHAdeMO. It is non-isolated ground with Power Line Communication. CHAdeMO is isolated ground with CAN bus communication.

hyperlexis · Jan 6, 2013

TonyWilliams said:
evnow said:

So, no cars & no chargers. SAE will ofcourse not abandon the std :lol:

Click to expand...

The fundamentals issues are:

1. CHAdeMO has almost two thousand units up and running world wide. That number will like increase significantly in 2013.

2. SAE only recently voted for their "Frankenplug" standard, many YEARS behind CHAdeMO. There has been no durability tests of any stature, no production, no significant volume of cars to be produced in the coming year or two that will use the Frankenplug. Unlike CHAdeMO, GM has actually hired consultants and PR folks to "sell" this new "standard". CHAdeMO didn't have to resort to that; the world just cranks out the equipment and compatible cars.

3. There is no "national" standard in the sense that anybody is required to install a Frankenplug station over a CHAdeMO. Granted, folks at GM are working hard to use regulations in place of investment in wide scale EV production. The de facto standard is CHAdeMO and Tesla (which uses a loose iteration of Frankenplug).

4. We are only months away from two production cars, GM Spark (extremely limited for California compliance... maybe 2500 units, or 5% of LEAF production so far) and BMW i3 (the only serious effort at an EV that is Frankenplug compliant). I predict not single public Frankenplug will be available for them to plug into anywhere in the world.

5. GM, the puppet masters behind the Frankenplug, made sure it would not be compliant with CHAdeMO. It is non-isolated ground with Power Line Communication. CHAdeMO is isolated ground with CAN bus communication.

Well that sounds like a war and a war like that can spell bad business. Betamax vs. VHS, HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, and even Edison's d.c. system vs. Westinghouse's a.c. Sometimes the 'better' system even loses (i.e. Beta).

Eventually someone will have to 'win' this QC standard war or a truce will have to be called. You obviously think the Japanese standard will prevail over the SAE's standard, but what if not? Has Nissan ever publicly come out and stated that they will 'continue to support' all Leaf owners regardless of which standard prevails, or something to that effect? (i.e. Nissan will upgrade existing Leaf owners' QC charge ports for free to the prevailing U.S. standard, if SAE 'wins'?) A car is not nearly as easy or cheap to replace as a VCR after all.

Because if say four or five years from now, things change dramatically, and SAE or General Motors does prevail, for argument's sake, and no new Chademo QC chargers are thereafter installed in the US, or worse, existing ones are decommissioned, you would have thousands of Leaf drivers in a really big pickle.

TonyWilliams · Jan 6, 2013

hyperlexis said:
Because if say four or five years from now, things change dramatically, and SAE or General Motors does prevail, for argument's sake, and no new Chademo QC chargers are thereafter installed in the US, or worse, existing ones are decommissioned, you would have thousands of Leaf drivers in a really big pickle.

Oh, there will Frankenplugs in 5 years. Is GM or BMW offering anybody a "guarantee" of future availability of Frankenplugs? Heck, the Frankenplug standard won't even be compatible with Euro versions until 2017.

You seem to think one standard has to prevail, and they don't. You have diesel and gasoline at the pump, and diesel cars make up a tiny population of the total cars in the USA. There are also CNG cars, LPG, propane, alcohol, etc.

I suspect we will see MANY more standards in the coming years; wireless ones, AC power ones like Renault's "Chameleon" charger, a next generation Tesla, maybe even Chinese standards.

GM wants you to get wound up over Frankenplug, so you won't let all their competition (mostly Nissan) get too far out front.

smkettner · Jan 6, 2013

hyperlexis said:
A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity....

Is vacuuming a vehicle, polishing etc also stealing electric? I would force the association to make a ruling and if not in my favor I would fight it. Best of course is to have the outlet connected to your own meter. Or offer ~$30 per month reimbursement for all that is stolen.

hyperlexis · Jan 6, 2013

smkettner said:
hyperlexis said:

A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity....

Click to expand...

Is vacuuming a vehicle, polishing etc also stealing electric? I would force the association to make a ruling and if not in my favor I would fight it. Best of course is to have the outlet connected to your own meter. Or offer ~$30 per month reimbursement for all that is stolen.

OMG thats not even the half of it. There's a handicapped man in the bldg who repeatedly left one of his electric scooter chairs in the garage to charge from a wall outlet -- and people complained about it. This is the kind of people who live in condos.... I cannot wait to get out of this horrible building frankly, but everyone is underwater.

The only thing that will save us is that new state law compelling multiunit buildigs to offer vehicle garage charging if requested by residents, but the bill is stalled in committee so far.

One could ask the condo to allow it, but without the law forcing them to, I doubt they would help. It's just not in their nature. They wouldn't want the fight of having other owners complain that some people are getting electricity and not paying for it, etc....

cwerdna · Jan 7, 2013

hyperlexis said:
Well that sounds like a war and a war like that can spell bad business. Betamax vs. VHS, HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, and even Edison's d.c. system vs. Westinghouse's a.c. Sometimes the 'better' system even loses (i.e. Beta).

Eventually someone will have to 'win' this QC standard war or a truce will have to be called.

Yes, it was a war instigated by the Frankenplug crowd and SAE w/GM pulling punches. From http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GM's Shad Balch, Manager of Environment & Energy Policy...

Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

Great. Where are GM's fast charging vehicles?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was a decent translation of the situation.

evnow said:
GM has Spark EV coming out soon. But, that will only sell a thousand or so per year. That leaves BMW i3. We don't know how well that car will really sell - or how many would get just BEV with SAE charger instead of the REx option.

I earlier already posted sales of hybrids and plug-in vehicles for an idea of how well compliance cars sell. It really is tough to say how well the BMW i3 will sell and how many will have Frankenplug. But, take a look at how vehicles BMW sells annually in the US at http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/03/2012-dont-call-it-a-comeback-edition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; vs. the Big 3 US and Japanese automakers. BMW branded vehicles also aren't known for their low prices, which makes me wonder how wide the i3's appeal will be vs. other BEVs and PHEVs in a crowded market.

hyperlexis · Jan 7, 2013

cwerdna said:
hyperlexis said:

Well that sounds like a war and a war like that can spell bad business. Betamax vs. VHS, HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, and even Edison's d.c. system vs. Westinghouse's a.c. Sometimes the 'better' system even loses (i.e. Beta).

Eventually someone will have to 'win' this QC standard war or a truce will have to be called.

Click to expand...

Yes, it was a war instigated by the Frankenplug crowd and SAE w/GM pulling punches. From http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GM's Shad Balch, Manager of Environment & Energy Policy...

Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

Click to expand...

Great. Where are GM's fast charging vehicles?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was a decent translation of the situation.

evnow said:

GM has Spark EV coming out soon. But, that will only sell a thousand or so per year. That leaves BMW i3. We don't know how well that car will really sell - or how many would get just BEV with SAE charger instead of the REx option.

Click to expand...

I earlier already posted sales of hybrids and plug-in vehicles for an idea of how well compliance cars sell. It really is tough to say how well the BMW i3 will sell and how many will have Frankenplug. But, take a look at how vehicles BMW sells annually in the US at http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/03/2012-dont-call-it-a-comeback-edition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; vs. the Big 3 US and Japanese automakers. BMW branded vehicles also aren't known for their low prices, which makes me wonder how wide the i3's appeal will be vs. other BEVs and PHEVs in a crowded market.

Thank you for the link -- excellent, well written article!

Yes this distills things down well. Then what in the world to do? There are thousands of Leaf drivers and iMiev drivers out there with Chademo ports who would have their investments wiped out to a good extent if Chademo stations stop being rolled out or even removed, in favor of the SAE standard. And GM/SAE also have a good point that a single plug for both L2 and L3 charging is better than two separate units. It's truly a shame that Chademo was not designed as a single plug configuration.

Perhaps the best help would be lobbying the legislatures of each state or the federal government? That if the SAE standard is adopted as a national standard, the Chademo plug MUST also be included on each QC unit installed in the US as well. At least for X number of years.

I know that they did this for leaded gasoline. The nozzle sizes on the pumps were different to prevent mix ups and as far as I remember, and the stations kept selling leaded for years after unleaded was introduced. I don't remember if the government mandated that stations keep selling it for a set number of years, but perhaps it did?

Otherwise, the second best, or equally best solution, is to demand help from Nissan. That if Chademo is supplanted by SAE, Nissan will issue a service bulletin and voluntarily convert all existing Leafs' QC plugs to SAE for free.

Otherwise Nissan could really have a PR disaster on its doorsteps.

walterbays · Jan 7, 2013

hyperlexis said:
GM/SAE also have a good point that a single plug for both L2 and L3 charging is better than two separate units.

Not really. There's no time when you'd plug in to recharge without being aware of whether you were charging slowly (leaving the car for an hour or two while you do something else) or quickly (remaining with the car to vacate the spot when it's done). The only difference between having separate L2 and QC ports and having them combined is whether or not you have a couple millimeters of plastic dividing the two groupings of pins, and whether or not you bundle all the wires into a single cable or have two cables.

It's a minor benefit to car makers who with SAE can use a slightly smaller charging port door than Nissan which needs a larger door to accommodate both ports. This is mainly a benefit to EV conversions of existing ICE vehicles. It will be a minor inconvenience to drivers of SAE cars who will have to struggle with heavier cables all the time even though they only ever need half of the wires at any one time.

It's truly a shame that Chademo was not designed as a single plug configuration.

It's not about 1 versus 2 plugs. It's about being incompatible with the market leaders. If Chademo had been designed with a single plug then SAE would have found some other difference on which to be incompatible, with another plausible story for why their change was an improvement.

PS,

here's the new combo nozzle SAE designed to save us from having separate nozzles for gasoline and diesel:

garygid · Jan 7, 2013

Some entities (perhaps similar to GM/SAE/OIL/GAS) might not want
this round of the EV Revolution to be a success, so their efforts might
be intended to create E-Fear, rather than E-Harmony, in many ways.

redLEAF · Jan 7, 2013

hyperlexis said:
Please forgive me as this is my first post and am not sure if this is the best section to place this thread into.

However, my question is twofold. I am seriously looking at purchasing a Leaf and test drove one at my local dealer yesterday. The financial incentives from the dealer and from tax credits were shocking -- virtually half the price of the vehicle. Almost too good to pass up. Unfortunately, I have serious concerns about charging. Because I live in a large highrise condo filled with a**holes, charging in my garage may be a difficult proposition. A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity.... Illinois has a bill requiring condos offer charging for owners, however the bill is now back in committee and who knows if it will ever pass.

So a quick charge port is critical.

Thanks!

Getting back to what you could do today and a few caveats to EV ownership specifically in IL and the Chicagoland areas (be sure to wade through the posts on that thread as that's were you'll find folks from your area who own LEAF's now) http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=357

Specific to IL ownership --- 10% MSRP cash rebate, only available if you purchase, not lease unfortunately; leasing would have given you a bit more flexibility with the whole charging thing but you'll lose this 10% rebate from the IL EPA if you get your LEAF that way. 50% EVSE rebate for equipment + install -- this might be something to approach your condo association with; not sure how open they might be if any parking is at a premium and/or if electrical access is an issue but worth checking out.

Specific to QC, etc. -- not sure exactly where in Chicago you are but the L3 or QC stations are few and far between right now, we have a few in the 'burbs but most aren't operational, you should find more L2 (240V) stations for overnight faster charging than the standard 120V household plug type but post something over on the Chicagoland thread and I would think a few downtown folks should be able to chime in. You should also be aware that heavy or regular use of QC is really not recommended for the life of the battery as well as though it's quick (20 or 30 minutes) it only gets you to about 80% due to the fact that it heats up the battery very quickly much more 'juice' than the 240V charging rate. I've seen the L2 chargers in a number of parking garages downtown but if you're already paying your condo association for parking that may not be economical but if you opted to park in one of these garages (with charger access) instead of paying for parking at the condo garage it may actually work to your benefit and avoid any confrontation with other tenants.

I myself live in the NW 'burbs and my LEAF is in a semi-heated garage, we have an L2 charger in our garage and I have yet to actually use a public charger as the ones we have are too close (in most cases) so no real advantage on extending my range --- I did run into one instance where I traveled downtown (although someone else drove) and I probably would have been fine as the parking garage we used (around the corner from the downtown Marriott on Michigan Ave) had two unoccupied L2 chargers but they had orange cones in front of them so wasn't sure if they were operational or not (the R/T was 96 miles, in winter so a stretch even starting with a full charge). And I guess that's the frustrating part of public charging, unlike a gas station an EV requires more time to refill than an ICE so some may just simply leave their EV's plugged in 'hogging' the EVSE for much longer simply because they can which leaves others who need it with it unavailable ... this phenomenon happens more often in areas (like CA) where there is much more infrastructure but will happen in IL eventually I would guess ... more often a non-EV parks in the EV spot as these tend to be located in prime spaces.

I think an EV could still work for you but will take a bit more research than for someone who can put a charger close to where they can park at night ... you may also want to check where you work on the whole EVSE rebate for that location as an alternative, you would typically have enough time during the work day to charge up the car and not have to worry about the condo parking at all. Also shows your company is environmentally conscious but of course this could start the whole condo envy type thing ... make sure they put in in away from the prime spots!

hyperlexis · Jan 7, 2013

redLEAF said:
hyperlexis said:

Please forgive me as this is my first post and am not sure if this is the best section to place this thread into.

However, my question is twofold. I am seriously looking at purchasing a Leaf and test drove one at my local dealer yesterday. The financial incentives from the dealer and from tax credits were shocking -- virtually half the price of the vehicle. Almost too good to pass up. Unfortunately, I have serious concerns about charging. Because I live in a large highrise condo filled with a**holes, charging in my garage may be a difficult proposition. A guest once parked a Leaf downstairs and people complained how it was stealing our electricity.... Illinois has a bill requiring condos offer charging for owners, however the bill is now back in committee and who knows if it will ever pass.

So a quick charge port is critical.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Getting back to what you could do today and a few caveats to EV ownership specifically in IL and the Chicagoland areas (be sure to wade through the posts on that thread as that's were you'll find folks from your area who own LEAF's now) http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=357

Specific to IL ownership --- 10% MSRP cash rebate, only available if you purchase, not lease unfortunately; leasing would have given you a bit more flexibility with the whole charging thing but you'll lose this 10% rebate from the IL EPA if you get your LEAF that way. 50% EVSE rebate for equipment + install -- this might be something to approach your condo association with; not sure how open they might be if any parking is at a premium and/or if electrical access is an issue but worth checking out.

Specific to QC, etc. -- not sure exactly where in Chicago you are but the L3 or QC stations are few and far between right now, we have a few in the 'burbs but most aren't operational, you should find more L2 (240V) stations for overnight faster charging than the standard 120V household plug type but post something over on the Chicagoland thread and I would think a few downtown folks should be able to chime in. You should also be aware that heavy or regular use of QC is really not recommended for the life of the battery as well as though it's quick (20 or 30 minutes) it only gets you to about 80% due to the fact that it heats up the battery very quickly much more 'juice' than the 240V charging rate. I've seen the L2 chargers in a number of parking garages downtown but if you're already paying your condo association for parking that may not be economical but if you opted to park in one of these garages (with charger access) instead of paying for parking at the condo garage it may actually work to your benefit and avoid any confrontation with other tenants.

I myself live in the NW 'burbs and my LEAF is in a semi-heated garage, we have an L2 charger in our garage and I have yet to actually use a public charger as the ones we have are too close (in most cases) so no real advantage on extending my range --- I did run into one instance where I traveled downtown (although someone else drove) and I probably would have been fine as the parking garage we used (around the corner from the downtown Marriott on Michigan Ave) had two unoccupied L2 chargers but they had orange cones in front of them so wasn't sure if they were operational or not (the R/T was 96 miles, in winter so a stretch even starting with a full charge). And I guess that's the frustrating part of public charging, unlike a gas station an EV requires more time to refill than an ICE so some may just simply leave their EV's plugged in 'hogging' the EVSE for much longer simply because they can which leaves others who need it with it unavailable ... this phenomenon happens more often in areas (like CA) where there is much more infrastructure but will happen in IL eventually I would guess ... more often a non-EV parks in the EV spot as these tend to be located in prime spaces.

I think an EV could still work for you but will take a bit more research than for someone who can put a charger close to where they can park at night ... you may also want to check where you work on the whole EVSE rebate for that location as an alternative, you would typically have enough time during the work day to charge up the car and not have to worry about the condo parking at all. Also shows your company is environmentally conscious but of course this could start the whole condo envy type thing ... make sure they put in in away from the prime spots!

Yeah the Wrigleyville Whole Foods at Halsted and Grace has two L2 chargers from Chargepoint that work and I think are free and one L3 Chademo charger that has been broken for months. I'[m waiting for the manager to get back to me on that one, when or if it will ever be returned to service. There are many Walgreens that have L2 chargers and a small handfull that have L3 units but many are pay-only and are quite expensive, about $2 per hour. So that would be uneconomical for everyday use.

Unfortunately condos are not for profits and they don't pay taxes. So a tax credit would not benefit them as far as I am aware. And an owner putting a charger up on a common element (a garage post, etc) would likewise be considered "taking" a piece of the property for private use. So the board would just have to do it out of the goodness of their hearts. And with the type of people in my bldg., I doubt that will happen. Perhaps if enough people ask for it, yes, of if the state legislature passes the law mandating access to electric charging in multiunit buildings (or perhaps the city will do so first), then things could work. Ironic that in cities, where EVs would work the best, their introduction is the most difficult because of multiunit garages, street-only parking, and the prevalence of fee-based charging stations in commercial lots. Homes in the suburbs are fine, with garages and therefore cheap, nightly recharging costs, but then the driving distances are much longer. If the city would put free charging stations on the streets etc., it would sure be ideal. They can sure put parking meters up all over.... LOL

What I am really trying to find now is a dealer who will sell me a Leaf, but allow me to assign him all my tax credits and the $4k Illinois EPA rebate. Thus cutting the total cost of sale at the time I buy the car. So I don't have to float the huge cost up front.

edatoakrun · Jan 7, 2013

IMO, there are actually multiple reasons why it is advantageous to have separate ports for the on board (AC) charger and the off-board (DC) charger.

The collective idiocy and/or disingenuousness of the SAE committee is evident in their explanation that their single plug and cable design is somehow advantageous.

walterbays said:
hyperlexis said:

GM/SAE also have a good point that a single plug for both L2 and L3 charging is better than two separate units.

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Not really. There's no time when you'd plug in to recharge without being aware of whether you were charging slowly (leaving the car for an hour or two while you do something else) or quickly (remaining with the car to vacate the spot when it's done). The only difference between having separate L2 and QC ports and having them combined is whether or not you have a couple millimeters of plastic dividing the two groupings of pins, and whether or not you bundle all the wires into a single cable or have two cables.

It's a minor benefit to car makers who with SAE can use a slightly smaller charging port door than Nissan which needs a larger door to accommodate both ports. This is mainly a benefit to EV conversions of existing ICE vehicles. It will be a minor inconvenience to drivers of SAE cars who will have to struggle with heavier cables all the time even though they only ever need half of the wires at any one time.

It's truly a shame that Chademo was not designed as a single plug configuration.

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It's not about 1 versus 2 plugs. It's about being incompatible with the market leaders. If Chademo had been designed with a single plug then SAE would have found some other difference on which to be incompatible, with another plausible story for why their change was an improvement.

PS, here's the new combo nozzle SAE designed to save us from having separate nozzles for gasoline and diesel:

...It will be a minor inconvenience to drivers of SAE cars who will have to struggle with heavier cables all the time even though they only ever need half of the wires at any one time...

I assume Each SAE charger/charge point will be dedicated DC or AC, so the cables wont have redundant AC and DC wires, will they?

If they really were to build dual-purpose chargers, I can just see the Chevy Spark driver who drives up to the first SAE fast charger for DC, and finds A Volt plugged in for an all-day L2...

Any Chademo adaptor plug for SAE Combo plug charger?

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