2019 Leaf battery overheating

The LEAF has two mickey-mouse gauges:

One is temperature
The other is the capacity bars

Nissan LEAF Batteries To Outlast Car By 10-12 Years

https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/nissan-looks-ways-use-long-lasting-ev-batteries

https://insideevs.com/news/351314/nissan-leaf-battery-longevity/

OrientExpress said:

Nissan LEAF Batteries To Outlast Car By 10-12 Years

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And the lowest SoC before the battery is called dead is ?

I saw that too....

I wonder which batteries this claim applies to. Maybe starting in 2015 it would be believable but certainly not for the early packs. And of course, how much degradation is allowed? I'm sure a 6 bar loser battery would be useful in a solar backup system for instance, but in a car, not so much.

I would think that it's primarily the batteries from the last four years. The first generation batteries have certainly kickstarted these efforts, but the real emphasis is on the later year batteries.

goldbrick said:

I saw that too....

I wonder which batteries this claim applies to. Maybe starting in 2015 it would be believable but certainly not for the early packs. And of course, how much degradation is allowed? I'm sure a 6 bar loser battery would be useful in a solar backup system for instance, but in a car, not so much.

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Or maybe they plan on using 10X more batteries in parallel than would be typically needed to achieve the desired kWhs.

There is a small trial going on here in the US at March AFB and at Nissan headquarters. I believe that those packs are older 24 kWh that have been remanufactured.

OK got dongle (LELink^2) and loaded LeafSpy Pro. Just returned from a trip to Philly totaling (close to) 200 km.

First of all:

1. Are there any issues if I keep the dongle plugged in all the time? It seems to shut off when App is off.
2. Does Nissan object on us using this tool, like warranty issues and stuff?

Now about my stats:

Start: SOC=98.1%, GID=494, Tmax=23.3 Tavg=23.3 Outside temp: 17C
drove outside Turnpike at slower speeds under 100km/h. temp raised slowly throughout the drive. Total distance ~100km
Philly: SOC=60.3%, GID=304, Tmax=29.4 Tavg=28.8 Outside temp: 21C
Return trip on Turnpike after about 30 min pause in Philly with stop for QC at Service plaza on Turnpike 65km from Phily:
Before QC: SOC=27%, GID=136, Tmax=35.8, Tavg=34.7, Outside temp: 22C
Charge power was throttled down to 32kW. Jot got coffee and unplugged.
After QC: SOC=47.4%, GID=226, Tmax=40.5, Tavg=39.2, Outside same
I did a quick Unplug and re-plug:
Charge power was throttled down to 27 kW this time.
Unplugged and drove home.
End (total 200km): SOC=34.6%, GID=174, Tmax=40.4, Tavg=39.0 Outside temp 24C

Note final stretch is mostly through the forest in 45mph speed limit.

CONCLUSION:
Based on Bjorn's graph I have Rapidgate software on my 2019 Leaf. In other words, I am on the red graph not the blue one bc at 35C battery temp I was throttled to 32kW. then at 40C battery temp I was throttled to 27kW.

metricus said:

End (total 200km): SOC=34.6%, GID=174, Tmax=40.4, Tavg=39.0 Outside temp 24C

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The battery surely loved that 40C (104F) cook, right? Luckily in the summer, the Philly ambient temp is never above 24C (75).
If throttling had not occurred, the battery would have cooked more. Without TMS, any form of "Rapidgate" should be expected
on any BEV, given how the battery can rapidly heat up during charging. Even with TMS some "Rapidgate" will occur, but not to
the extent found on the Leaf. Without "Rapidgate", expect a higher rate of battery degradation on your Leaf.

^^ good data, and thanks for the metric use. So much easier for me to follow.
The battery heating and throttling behavior is why Bjorn suggests that a trip start out slow speed, to a low SoC, and then charge to ~ 90%. Any charge thereafter will be severely throttled (so you can drive faster on the second leg.) As lorenfb says, ONE DCFC per trip ... and a fairly crappy one at that but much better than any subsequent DCFC until the car can cool off overnight.

Now, lets look at the rate your battery is gaining temperature:
5C was gained from a 20% increase in SoC, equal to 0.25 C for every one percent SOC increase. That appears to be well within Bjorn's findings and does not support the notion that your car has a defective battery (meaning it is about as good (or bad, as your POV dictates) as Nissan engineered it to be.

I know this is not news you want to hear but you are better informed now. I hope the LEAF turns out to be good value for you (meaning that the lease was cheap) but do be aware that MUCH more functional EVS are available. A good TMS is very valuable. E.g., in a couple of weeks were are going on a day trip in our Tesla Model 3 LR. Each way is 211 miles by ICE but we have to add 13 miles to reach a Supercharger on the way home and in total add 45 minutes to the road time compared to if no breaks and no detours were allowed. As it is, we will plan to eat during the charging stop so the actual time increase on the road compared to an ICE is on the order of 10 minutes since I would stop to refuel the ICE too. The average charging speed is well over 100 kW and the car does not dictate our driving speed.

SageBrush said:

I know this is not news you want to hear but at least you are well informed now.

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Correct, well informed... However madly angry at Nissan for not disclosing this. This is BS.

Is there a way to fix this? ex: twist someone's hand to install the blue graph software? Does anyone in US have the non rapidgate software? etc...etc...?

SageBrush said:

thanks for the metric use. So much easier for me to follow.

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you're welcome, for me too. See my username for hints...

lorenfb said:

Without "Rapidgate", expect a higher rate of battery degradation on your Leaf.

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It is a 2 year lease and I sincerely don't care if the battery cooks. They created the problem let them eat it. my 2016 Leaf DEFINITELY did not have this issue. ..or it was less dramatic to be noticeable.

SageBrush said:

I hope the LEAF turns out to be good value for you (meaning that the lease was cheap) but do be aware that MUCH more functional EVS are available.

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3k$ down 218$/mo

If I had known of this issue I would have not leased this vehicle. This is why I consider Nissan's act of non disclosing the daily range limitation due to overheating to be false advertisement.

After owning the 2016 Leaf I did not need another brand just a slightly larger battery, but now we are seriously considering a Model 3. I have applied for a repurchase from Nissan. We'll see how that goes...

metricus said:

Is there a way to fix this? ex: twist someone's hand to install the blue graph software?

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Nissan has said that they did not offer the "fix" in the US due to low demand. Take that for what it is worth but by all means write them a letter and tell them your opinion.

metricus said:

we are seriously considering a Model 3. I have applied for a repurchase from Nissan. We'll see how that goes...

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Good luck ! (I mean it.)

metricus said:

If I had known of this issue I would have not leased this vehicle. This is why I consider Nissan's act of non disclosing the daily range limitation due to overheating to be false advertisement.

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Good luck with your quest. Of course given that Nissan devoted an entire section to the battery limitations, and the disclosure form that you may have been presented with may dampen your claim of non-disclosure. But give it a try and see what happens. It may be fodder for them to move the lease into a 2019 Leaf Plus.

Good luck with your quest. Of course given that Nissan devoted an entire section to the battery limitations, and the disclosure form that you may have been presented with may dampen your claim of non-disclosure.

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I remember no such form. I also don't remember being told to read the owner's manual before deciding on the car.

OrientExpress said:

and the disclosure form that you may have been presented with may dampen your claim of non-disclosure.

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Do you have any specifics on this form? I too don't remember having any discussion on this topic with the sales team.

A few relevant quotes from the manual:

Page CH-6: "Quick charging is possible (even several times a day). If the battery temperature is near the red zone, in order to protect the battery, power of the quick charger will be limited."
We already know that power throttling starts even while the gauge is in the middle. So this is a lie. Also as it has been shown many times, quick charging is not possible several times a day (not even in Norway). And by Quick charge I mean at 43kW not throttled charge. So there's another lie or "falsehood" as we like to call them since 2016.

Page 2-8: "NOTE: If... temperature ... is near the red zone end reduce vehicle speed to decrease the temperature." We also know that the temperature cannot be decreased while vehicle is operational. At best you can reduce its increase.

Frankly, I don't see any place where it says that while vehicle is driven, the battery temperature increases constantly even in temperate climates and at moderate road speeds ~90km/h ~55mi/h.
And, most importantly, I don't see a clear statement that not only there is a range limitation based on charge but also a daily range limitation due to overheating before one MUST park the car in a cool place overnight.

metricus said:

Page CH-6: "Quick charging is possible (even several times a day). If the battery temperature is near the red zone, in order to protect the battery, power of the quick charger will be limited."

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Interesting quote. I presume Nissan will say that sentence applied to throttling to prevent damage and has nothing to do with throttling to slow down degradation.

Still, it is an obscure enough argument that Nissan might back off if the noise is loud enough or perhaps find it more convenient to let you return the car to shut you up.

Once again -- Good Luck !

OrientExpress said:

so again for the umpteenth time here is the section that describes that gauge. The key takeaway is that if the white bar on the gauge is between the short blue and short red mark, regardless where on the gauge it is, that is the normal operating temperature.

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I have been reading some previous posts that I missed on pages 9-13.

To OrientExpress: Whatever Nissan calls normal range of that gauge include areas where charge power is heavily throttled down.
I would have no objections if the charge power would be reduced once the gauge reaches the short red mark or when it's on red. The very fact that they call the range normal despite this throttling situation is misleading.

Also to OrientExpress: I did have charge power of 43kW twice even after a 80 km drive. Strangely enough that was only when the car was brand new (1 week). Never seen 43 since.

GerryAZ said:

OrientExpress said:

SageBrush said:

Don't you think it is time to get LeafSpy ? You have been a noob long enough.
Or does it interfere with your shill duties ?

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Nope, Until LEAF Spy can be certified by Nissan as being a credible measurement tool, it serves no purpose other than to entertain.

LEAF Spy is a perfect toy for experts such as yourself however.

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Orient Express,

Since you seem to be a Nissan expert, perhaps you can tell me how and where I can purchase a device certified by Nissan that lets me read accurate data from the car's various modules (especially data related to the traction battery) and perform maintenance/repair functions. As far as I know, Consult 3+ is the only device that might be certified by Nissan and has the capability I want. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find out how/where I can purchase it as a private individual so that leaves me with Leaf Spy Pro as the best alternative that I can actually obtain. I want to send a really big THANK YOU to Jim for creating the application!

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The correct question here is if using the dongle interferes somehow with the user agreement or warranty terms and conditions or is this just OE's ad-hoc rule.

If OE purchased a leaf but does not want to buy a dongle and the app is his business. His should however take the inevitable pokes with cheer.