Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

mjblazin said:

I assume it is not for people with pacemakers. I don't know how it moves 5-10 kWh an hour across open air, but it can't be good for devices operating in the milliwatt range.

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Somewhere quite a while back I found an article that addressed the pacemaker issue. IIRR, the frequency being used for wireless car charging wasn't a problem. As it happens, wireless charging for pacemakers etc. is seen as a coming thing, as it reduces the risk of infection from wires passing through the skin.

EVDRIVER said:

Efficiency, cost, and installation will drive this. Charge a Tesla and pay for 7kw per charge to loss, no thanks. Not to mention the cost of the sheer waste to the grid that would add up. People use LED lights to save power, good luck making that up with bulb changes. No way would I use it for an EV.

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I agree with you...I just hope the folks who make these do. If they can bring something to market at a reasonable (hardware) cost, it could muddy the L2 waters for a bit.

IIRC Tesla already commented and said they would be working on an automatic plug. That sounds like a much better solution.

I looked into the retro fit that's out for the leaf now and was never serious about buying it but it would not work for my home situation and won't work for all people. First at some houses people don't always park the same car in the same spot. A cord can reach multiple parking spots. Especially for families with young kids or the elderly and in winter time different cars might need to/want to take the best spot closest to the house.

Wireless charging requires some sort of skill when parking, yes they have a little wall mount device with lights to tell you when it's lined up but some people don't park so well. Even at my house sometimes the leaf is parked too far away for our cord to reach after my wife drives it. This should be super simple since I've told her how to line up the lines in the reverse camera with our garage door to ensure that it will reach it still is sometimes a foot too far. We live on a busy street with no limit on street parking which means for us we always back into our driveway. We can't park inside so there's no where to mount that display unit for us. It's much safer when we come out instead of trying to back out into a blind spot slowly to see if it's clear and just hope that someone will stop or swerve if it's not.

At best I see this as an option only. I think J1772 is hear to stay, it can handle up to 20kW already with a 100 amp breaker so that will mean overnight full charge times for batteries up to 200kWh. I can't see that not working for anyone that would consider a BEV. I can see the best market for people who are worried they may forget to plug in. As the husband of a woman who does forget to plug in and doesn't pay much attention to parking it perfectly I like the fact that I can look out my bedroom window every night and see if the plug is sticking into the front of the car.

Another article, via ievs:

Momentum Dynamics CEO: 25 kW Wireless Charging Will Be The Norm In 5 Years

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http://insideevs.com/momentum-dynamics-ceo-25-kw-wireless-charging-will-norm-5-years/

I don't know about 25kW, but I'm pretty confident about 5 years.

minispeed said:

IIRC Tesla already commented and said they would be working on an automatic plug. That sounds like a much better solution. .

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I might be the only one, but when I heard that, my first though was...
What a horribly complex solution asking for maintenance/alignment problems..

I'm a big fan of "fewer moving parts means fewer problems" myself.

Not saying it can't be done well, but I'm not enthralled by that concept..

desiv

How flexible is that thing in terms of alignment? I.e., How far off can the car be for proper operation?

How sturdy is it when drivers run over it with the tire as they turn into the parking/charging spot?

I've seen a number of homes in my neighborhood where the garage was flooded thanks to water company pressure surge bursting water heater pipes. Is that thing safe when flooding? Or when the A/C condensation drips on it? What about motor oil from the ICE cars that we know will ICE some of these spots?

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/07/tesla-snake-arm-auto-charge-video/

Teslas prototype in action.

Not the smoothest looking product, but it is still a prototype. I still think it would be better to use a floor mounted system for an automated plug. It would make it more difficult to retrofit to older cars which has always been a think Tesla has done but it would give it a cleaner sleeker install. However without putting it inside the floor it would probably be much bulkier than wireless.

Interesting to note all the different J1772 EVSE's in the background, looks like they want to test their cars for use on a good variety of different units.

minispeed said:

...I still think it would be better to use a floor mounted system for an automated plug. It would make it more difficult to retrofit to older cars which has always been a think Tesla has done but it would give it a cleaner sleeker install...

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IMO, all BEVs should have a common DC charge port location (almost surely underneath the car) and have the ability to drive autonomously at least to the extent to move to and from the charge space by themselves, in the near future.

Removing human error from the public charger will make it much more reliable, and also cheaper, considering the time value of the BEV occupants.

Whether the charge connection is inductive or by a robotic plug, really doesn't make a lot of difference.

What this mean is that every DC Charger (as well as every public EVSE) will be rendered obsolescent, though most of them can remain available during the standard transition. I doubt it would be cost-effective to retrofit the existing DCs, especially since their replacements will be much cheaper than they were.

It shouldn't be too hard to retrofit BEVs (but probably only cost-effective for newer/more expensive BEVs) as the new (and maybe higher) kW DC standard should be backward-compatible, but of course requiring the installation of the new charge port.

It looks like a solution looking for a problem. I am not seeing the benefit over a cord. It has to have increased installation and maintenance costs with less flexibility. The one benefit I see is if you had a squadron of autonomous BEVs, as a taxi fleet, then you could program each to drive up and get charged one after the the other. A fleet owner could have the doodads to ensure minimal variation in entry/exit and access control. An individual would just have a hole in their garage floor when a wall plug would work fine.

mjblazin said:

It looks like a solution looking for a problem. I am not seeing the benefit over a cord.

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Excellent way to put it. This really seems like a lot of extra expense. But as I've said before, I'm an accountant, not an engineer.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/11/uk-to-trial-under-road-wireless-charging-for-evs-this-year/

I would have thought this was a far way off from testing still.

minispeed said:

I would have thought this was a far way off from testing still.

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I think there was an episode of Fully Charged that talked about "in road charging while driving" already being piloted.
Was it the one on Masdar City?? Can't remember..
But the tech is more than ready for testing..
Not sure it actually makes financial sense, but that's a different question.. ;-)

desiv

Would be very useful, eliminating charge stops, might allow apt dwellers market access. Add AV fleets and lessen congestion and parking issues.

Wouldn't need to be continuous, could be segmented. Could be funded by private capital. Could be done on major city thoroughfares as well.

Seeing as how we can't afford (well, aren't willing to pay for) maintaining the road and highway infrastructure we already have, I have a hard time seeing how this could ever be affordable. Still, if someone want's to give it a shot, more power to them (no pun intended, although maybe it should have been).

minispeed said:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/11/uk-to-trial-under-road-wireless-charging-for-evs-this-year/

I would have thought this was a far way off from testing still.

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The concept is very cool, but even forgetting the infrastructure cost what about the incredible low efficiency of energy transfer for such a system?

epirali said:

minispeed said:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/11/uk-to-trial-under-road-wireless-charging-for-evs-this-year/

I would have thought this was a far way off from testing still.

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The concept is very cool, but even forgetting the infrastructure cost what about the incredible low efficiency of energy transfer for such a system?

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Yep.

It might even being it down to the efficiency of H2 fuel cells vehicles.

RegGuheert said:

epirali said:

minispeed said:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/11/uk-to-trial-under-road-wireless-charging-for-evs-this-year/

I would have thought this was a far way off from testing still.

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The concept is very cool, but even forgetting the infrastructure cost what about the incredible low efficiency of energy transfer for such a system?

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Yep.

It might even being it down to the efficiency of H2 fuel cells vehicles.

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You realize your post is off topic and refers to ANOTHER discussion right? Can we stay on topic please?

This may have been posted before, but this seems to have a good description of potential and pitfalls of this idea.

http://www.egvi.eu/projects/13/38/UNPLUGGED-Inductive-charging-for-Electric-Vehicles-February-2014

The infrastructure cost will staggering I imagine. Considering we won't spend money on road or stationary chargers it is very hard to imagine this kind of expenditure, even if everyone agreed to a singular standard.

Let's try this again.

From this thread:

epirali said:

The concept is very cool, but even forgetting the infrastructure cost what about the incredible low efficiency of energy transfer for such a system?

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From the Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread:

epirali said:

Yes I understand it will be less efficient in absolute terms, but that goes back to I'll take 80% adoption of 40% efficiency over 5% adoption of 90% efficiency.

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In the hydrogen thread, you're all all in favor of low-efficiency solutions which would require increasing the amount of electricity produce in the USA by 50%, so why do you all of a sudden care about efficiency in this thread?

Low efficiency is a BAD IDEA when applied to nearly anything, but in particular when it is done on a VERY LARGE SCALE.

RegGuheert said:

Let's try this again.

From this thread:

epirali said:

The concept is very cool, but even forgetting the infrastructure cost what about the incredible low efficiency of energy transfer for such a system?

Click to expand...

From the Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread:

epirali said:

Yes I understand it will be less efficient in absolute terms, but that goes back to I'll take 80% adoption of 40% efficiency over 5% adoption of 90% efficiency.

Click to expand...

In the hydrogen thread, you're all all in favor of low-efficiency solutions which would require increasing the amount of electricity produce in the USA by 50%, so why do you all of a sudden care about efficiency in this thread?

Low efficiency is a BAD IDEA when applied to nearly anything, but in particular when it is done on a VERY LARGE SCALE.

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Please read my response: it is off topic to discuss hydrogen in a topic about charging. Please contain your responses to the topic. I am not interested in your obsession about hydrogen and fuel cells.

On topic AGAIN: the infrastructure cost for wireless charging is too high. Regardless of efficiency loss (which may be much higher for vehicles in motion) it is much easier to place focused high power charging on route, rather than try to spread charging across countless miles.

Also infrastructure is controlled by municipalities and governments. This eliminates or makes nearly impossible for private industry to deploy and develop the technology. And I'll repeat: federal and most states are not putting money into infrastructure.

In other words he caught you being hypocritical. What he was saying was on topic by comparing efficiency originally.