AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 10:37 am

Sorry Nekota - I hope you can accept my desire to agree to disagree on your recommended solution. I simply cannot accept your mischaracterization of my position because, well, it's incorrect. Simple as that.

I asked you for a complete overview - externalities included - in order to take your advice and do a risk-based analysis. I hope you'll put your knowledge and experience to work for the group, but you certainly don't have to.

The purpose of this thread - as outlined a number of times already - is to look at the problems and all the possible solutions. Both the problems and solutions must be examined in all their glory - warts and all - or it's a useless waste of time.

I promise you that I am interested in looking at any and all solutions - regardless of the source or subject. I am learning and desire to continue to do so. I'll also make very, very clear that I do not have a poker face, am not a politician, and while I do understand that there are times when it's best to simply smile and be nice, there are other times - like when we've taken off the coats and ties and rolled up our sleeves - when it's necessary to put all the BS aside and just get the job done. And as I expect you will agree (since you did in your post) that time is not on our side here. This is one of those times. Lead, follow, or get run over are the choices. Not marketing, not spin.

I hope that's useful for you!

Again - last try - can you outline a probable future where we can have approximately 50% of our energy needs met with nuclear power by 2050? If you or anyone else cannot, externalities or not, then we have no choice but to leave your favorite program on the shelf and go with real solutions that CAN get us where we need to go - before we're under water.
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klapauzius
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 11:31 am

Nekota wrote: and soon Germany will follow but I'm not sure how long the Germans will put up with unreliable power

They will buy the extra power needed on the European energy market, maybe from France or Poland or the Czech republic.... :D
(For those not familiar with the situation, these countries do believe in nuclear power).
People are dumb, which is the biggest obstacle to progress and a sustainable (and comfortable) future.

AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 11:42 am

"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 12:08 pm

klapauzius wrote:
Nekota wrote: and soon Germany will follow but I'm not sure how long the Germans will put up with unreliable power

They will buy the extra power needed on the European energy market, maybe from France or Poland or the Czech republic.... :D
(For those not familiar with the situation, these countries do believe in nuclear power).
People are dumb, which is the biggest obstacle to progress and a sustainable (and comfortable) future.

France isn't as strong a believer any longer - especially after last summer's heat- and drought-induced reductions in plant output. Nuclear power is perfect for the old Earth - but we don't live there any longer.

The latest polls suggest it's running about 80% against:

http://www.theworld.org/2012/04/france-nuclear-power/
Once rock-solid support for nuclear power here has fallen dramatically. Recent polls have found that more than 80 percent of French voters now object to building new nuclear plants, and nearly two-thirds support phasing out existing plants.
Those poll numbers may have played a role in the decision by France’s opposition Socialists to support a plan by the smaller Green Party to close almost half of the country’s 58 nukes by 20-25. Socialist presidential candidate François Hollande told France 2 TV that while he doesn’t want to eliminate nuclear power, he does want to diversify the country’s electricity sources.


People are actually pretty smart - and they're waking up. Both are good things, Coppertop! :lol:
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AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 12:12 pm

Solution - Rooftop Solar

http://climatecrocks.com/2012/05/10/solar-energy-free-upfront/
HOLMDEL, N.J. — Jay Nuzzi, a New Jersey state trooper, had put off installing solar panels on his home here for years, deterred by the $70,000 it could cost. Then on a trip to Home Depot, he stumbled across a booth for Roof Diagnostics, which offered him a solar system at a price he couldn’t refuse: free.


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klapauzius
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 1:35 pm

AndyH wrote:Recent polls have found that more than 80 percent of French voters now object to building new nuclear plants, and nearly two-thirds support phasing out existing plants.
Those poll numbers may have played a role in the decision by France’s opposition Socialists to support a plan by the smaller Green Party to close almost half of the country’s 58 nukes by 20-25. Socialist presidential candidate François Hollande told France 2 TV that while he doesn’t want to eliminate nuclear power, he does want to diversify the country’s electricity sources.



This would be at odds with the ~70% electricity coming from nukes in France. I guess the reasonable approach in France will be to phase them out slowly. Lets assume that is what most people want. How they are going to replace ~30% of their power production with Co2 neutral technology in less than 15 years will be exciting to see.

Seriously, I am convinced renewables can eventually provide 100% of our needs (even when the sun does not shine, provided all those old Leaf batteries are put to good use as power storage devices), but this would need a concentrated effort...probably a few magnitudes bigger than the Apollo project. Since this is not happening short-to-mid term, we need something to keep us powered in the meantime. Preferably something without Co2 emissions.

Since you have no problems getting conservatives/climate change deniers on board for nukes, why not use them, while we work on a better solution. As the effects of global warming become visible, even to the mentally challenged, the political climate is guaranteed to move in favor of renewables. Once the technology is cheap and everyone wants it, we can phase out nuclear fission power.

Fusion, on the other hand, is something we, as a civilization, should pursue, because that is the stuff that will propel us to the stars eventually.

AndyH wrote:People are actually pretty smart - and they're waking up. Both are good things, Coppertop! :lol:

I am not sure that is true....lets hope for the best.

AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 10, 2012 5:18 pm

Everyone stop and watch this. It's only about four minutes - you'll waste more than that amount of time cruising other threads on the board. ;)

http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html



Extra credit:


Don't tell me that Americans don't want to make anything. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear know that's incorrect.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Fri May 11, 2012 9:54 am

Solution?

Norway's industrial-scale carbon capture and storage (CCS) plant is operational. It can capture 85% of CO2 from the input stream.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18030890


For comparison, let's look at the planet's CCS system.

Here's a look at measured CO2 levels since about 1958:
Image

And here's a closer look at the last few years:

Image

Here's a look at 2011:
2011_co2.jpg


The downward portion of the cycle happens when CO2 is removed from the atmosphere by vegetation. The atmospheric concentration of CO2 rises again when plants die (less removal and some CO2 release from decaying plant matter) and as we continue to add new CO2.

Every plant on the planet could only move the atmospheric CO2 level 5 parts per million in 2011. How many >$1 billion CCS plant will we need to make a dent in our emissions? How many trees should we be planting, and how many ways should we be reducing emissions in the mean time?

And why is Norway - with a tiny fraction of global emissions in the lead with CCS when the US and China are by far the largest emitters?
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/graph-showing-each-countrys.html
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Smidge204
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Fri May 11, 2012 10:13 am

Carbon capture is not a solution for anything, IMHO.

Unless you apply it to the atmosphere in general, all it can do is slow the increase in atmospheric CO2. CO2 is already too high by some arguments, so at the very absolute best we'll stop digging - but we're still in the hole.

But capture alone does absolutely nothing to address the issue that the fuel we're burning that results in that CO2 is a limited, non-renewable resource. Even if we succeed in capturing 100% of of released carbon, we're still boned as an industrial civilization.

Only way to make carbon capture a solution is to close the loop and power it with renewable energy. That's possible, but that's a long long road ahead of us.
=Smidge=

AndyH
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Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Thu May 17, 2012 12:03 am

Solution

Concentrated Solar

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